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Aphantasia and Psychedelics

psychedelirium.substack.com

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Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#31

Post by suddenlybananas »

roxolotl wrote: post #28
cnity wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My gut feel has always been that it is just a language thing where some people think that when others imagine things that they literally see it right in front of them _the same way_ they see real things. Like, when I imagine a scene or object in my head, I am not literally seeing it. It's like some vague in-between thing. And that people who claim to have aphantasia just have a higher bar for what it means to "see" s…

The parent article has brain scans showing different activations in control brains vs aphantasia vs hyperphantasia. Also when people self report that their experience has qualitatively changed that seems like a pretty strong indicator that’s at least a range.

The fact that some people report aphantasia and some people don't implies that their brains are different but it does not imply that the reason the brains are different is aphantasia. For example, aphantasia has some comorbidity with autism, probably because autism leads people to interpret expressions in different ways.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#32

Post by _ink_ »

thrance wrote: post #6

I feel like there's more to aphantasia than just "can you see the apple or not?". I can't for the life of me imagine an apple. At best, I get a very faint and dark picture of something resembling the fruit. Plus, there's one on the desk right next to me, so I shouldn't have too much trouble with the assignment, but here we are. On the other hand, I have a pretty good memory (compared to my peers) and I can recall viv…

> I feel like there's more to aphantasia than just "can you see the apple or not?".

There is. I think the definition is still being worked on. Here is an overview, but I don't see your particular case: https://aphantasia.com/article/science/aphantasia-definition...

Since you can recall scenes you saw, it might not be Aphantasia. Not being able to create visuals of random stuff might be called differently.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#33

Post by roxolotl »

suddenlybananas wrote: post #31
roxolotl wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent article has brain scans showing different activations in control brains vs aphantasia vs hyperphantasia. Also when people self report that their experience has qualitatively changed that seems like a pretty strong indicator that’s at least a range.

The fact that some people report aphantasia and some people don't implies that their brains are different but it does not imply that the reason the brains are different is aphantasia. For example, aphantasia has some comorbidity with autism, probably because autism leads people to interpret expressions in different ways.

So you’re saying you think people who report aphantasia see mental imagery but don’t think of it as imagery? And that the brain scans indicate difference but not around mental imagery?

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#34

Post by deepvibrations »

Curious - do people see a picture perfect apple when they close their eyes?

If you ask me to imagine a red apple, i can, but i have the image somewhere other than my actual vision... If i close my eyes I can't manipulate that space to show the apple.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#35

Post by eitland »

cnity wrote: post #24
card_zero wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel in my gut that this is fad-driven internet bullshit, and I would like to learn less, if it were possible. > Dr. Adam Zeman, a neurologist from Exeter, receives a patient who can no longer imagine — known as patient MX. MX goes blind in his mind’s eye after undergoing surgery. > Media outlets like the New York Times report the findings. This leads to an outpouring of new discoverers. Hmm

My gut feel has always been that it is just a language thing where some people think that when others imagine things that they literally see it right in front of them _the same way_ they see real things. Like, when I imagine a scene or object in my head, I am not literally seeing it. It's like some vague in-between thing. And that people who claim to have aphantasia just have a higher bar for what it means to "see" s…

Maybe you have aphantasia as well. I had without knowing it.

Some observations:

Someone told me to close my eyes and think about "an apple at a table".

Then I was told to open my eyes and tell what color the apple was.

The question didn't make sense to me:

I only thought about about the concept of "an apple on a table". When my eyes are closed it is black. Absolutely black. Blacker than a Norwegian winter night with cloud cover and no moon. There is nothing.

Until then I thought all this talk about seing things was just a metaphor for what I had also done.

But when I talk to others they will often immediately say it was green or red. Because they saw it.

Two extra observations:

Sometimes just before I fall asleep I can sometimes think images of stuff that doesn't exist: think 3d modeling with simple shapes.

And just after waking up I can sometimes manage to see relatively detailed images of actual physical things.

Both these only last for a few seconds to a few minutes.

Does this help?

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#36

Post by kakokiyrvoooo »

deepvibrations wrote: post #34

Curious - do people see a picture perfect apple when they close their eyes? If you ask me to imagine a red apple, i can, but i have the image somewhere other than my actual vision... If i close my eyes I can't manipulate that space to show the apple.

That’s similar to my experience.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#37

Post by graeme »

card_zero wrote: post #29
fellowniusmonk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also lost the ability to think in images after a series of surgeries at 13. I went from being a very imaginative kid with dream like states while awake to purely lexical. I stopped enjoying playing pretend with my sister basically overnight, I just couldn't see it any more. I still do have visual dreams though they are rare, I can no longer conjure any sense of an object while awake. I have a couple images from bef…

I respect you, fellowniusmonk, but all we ever get about aphantasia is self-report, anecdote, self-assessment questionnaire, subjective impression. People want me to be nice about this and acknowledge that the thing exists because they all say it does. The best I can offer is acknowledgement that you all say it does. On the other hand, you have a special claim to plausibility because of the surgery. Oh wait cardiovas…

>all we ever get about aphantasia is self-report, anecdote, self-assessment questionnaire, subjective impression.

Is there any other way to get information on what people see internally?

The idea that great artists, for example, don't have dramatically different visualization than people who report not seeing sharp images or images at all seems like the theory in need of proof.

You can't just say the evidence is subjective so you're right. The evidence only ever could be subjective.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#38

Post by suddenlybananas »

roxolotl wrote: post #33
suddenlybananas wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that some people report aphantasia and some people don't implies that their brains are different but it does not imply that the reason the brains are different is aphantasia. For example, aphantasia has some comorbidity with autism, probably because autism leads people to interpret expressions in different ways.

So you’re saying you think people who report aphantasia see mental imagery but don’t think of it as imagery? And that the brain scans indicate difference but not around mental imagery?

Yeah essentially, or alternatively neither group has visual imagery. I think it fundamentally comes down to phenomenology being very hard to express in language.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#39

Post by fellowniusmonk »

card_zero wrote: post #29
fellowniusmonk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also lost the ability to think in images after a series of surgeries at 13. I went from being a very imaginative kid with dream like states while awake to purely lexical. I stopped enjoying playing pretend with my sister basically overnight, I just couldn't see it any more. I still do have visual dreams though they are rare, I can no longer conjure any sense of an object while awake. I have a couple images from bef…

I respect you, fellowniusmonk, but all we ever get about aphantasia is self-report, anecdote, self-assessment questionnaire, subjective impression. People want me to be nice about this and acknowledge that the thing exists because they all say it does. The best I can offer is acknowledgement that you all say it does. On the other hand, you have a special claim to plausibility because of the surgery. Oh wait cardiovas…

If your core issue is with trying to quantify and observe others Qualia I think you're going to have a hard time.

I still have people tell me I must be faking my colorblindness, or just treat me like I'm blind. Normally teenagers, theory of mind is tough at that age.

I'm not sure nice or just a smidge of humility/uncertainty in expressing doubt.

Propagation of information pre-internet was so low people just couldn't easily triangulation on some of these things.

Fwiw I generally agree with you, my wife brought this up to me just in the last few years and I was like, oh I just thought this happened to everyone around 13 like a reverse Hook (the movie) thing.

But I can't paint or draw worth a damn sense then and she can freehand paint hyper realistic pictures. I don't see how she could do that without the imagination version of a stencil.

After I found out it wasn't a normal part of puberty I just figured it was brain damage acquired during the surgeries.

Also, from what I understand fMRI shows enough of a difference I'm inclined to believe the other people who say they were born that way.

Re: Aphantasia and Psychedelics

#40

Post by ajford »

incomingpain wrote: post #14

On the graph for aphantasia where it's words. I certainly dont imagine words. If I were to stretch the truth about seeing an apple, I maybe see an outline. Certainly no detail inside, like the relfection of light off the apple. Psychedelics, like mushrooms, do nothing for me. Mushrooms, I've never had a high better than say a light buzz from alcohol, generally nothing. I never get the wavvy or beer goggles from alcoh…

I interpreted it as more of "concepts" and not the word floating in space. That's closer to how I would describe my experience. With effort I can kinda force a static visualization but for lack of a better explanation it feels almost like a wireframe pre-render. Sounds similar to how you describe it.

Dreaming feel reminiscent to what an Audiobook feels like when thinking about the dream after waking up.

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