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Our efforts, in part, define us

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Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#31

Post by pettertb »

I can relate. It is important to meet this head-on, and not gloss over it, explain it away, or shame people for feeling this way.

I even feel this about the wargame "Warmachine", where in the past you could not measure distance before committing to actions. Deciding if model A and B were 10" or 14" apart was a critical skill, and called "weaponized geometry". I was good at it. The game has changed, and you can now measure to your hearts content, making this skill basically pointless. I still feel a tiny bit conflicted about it.

Dublin in the Rare Old Times - The Dubliners

Like my house that fell to progress//My trade's a memory

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#32

Post by andai »

makerofthings wrote: post #19
andrewstuart wrote: post #13

I became a computer programmer because I want the computer to do things. I’m not a programmer because I wanted to program. Thus AI is incredibly exciting to me because it makes it easier to make computers do things.

I became a programmer because I like to write code. Having an llm write code for me is like building a robot that eats cake.

For me it is both. I love certain kinds of programming, and don't enjoy other kinds. I'm naturally very good at some kinds, and not good at other kinds, despite putting in enormous effort.

I guess ideally I'd get a job that is perfectly aligned with this profile (a work in progress!), but AI allows me to deal with the reality I have now in a much more pleasant and productive way.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#34

Post by habinero »

falcor84 wrote: post #18
repeekad wrote: post #11

Amish communities have rejected “modern” technology convenience in exchange for good hard work for centuries and never looked back

> never looked back Obviously there are very many Amish people who leave their communities to join the modern world - according to various sources this attrition seems to be between 15-25%. And even amongst those who stay, it's likely that a central reason is the fear of excommunication/shunning, rather than an inherent desire to reject modern technology.

Yeah, people romanticize them, but they're basically a cult.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#35

Post by soco »

makerofthings wrote: post #19
andrewstuart wrote: post #13

I became a computer programmer because I want the computer to do things. I’m not a programmer because I wanted to program. Thus AI is incredibly exciting to me because it makes it easier to make computers do things.

I became a programmer because I like to write code. Having an llm write code for me is like building a robot that eats cake.

I'm sure you can and will still be able write code. It's just you'll be getting paid less and less if you do it for a living.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#36

Post by tolerance »

bartread wrote: post #16
tolerance wrote: post #2

Was the pleasure of writing code that the author describes tied to the actual practice or its profits? My impression is that many white collar workers felt that their jobs and accompanying status were immutable. They’re not. Couldn’t they have seen this coming? Nothing prevents people from continuing on with their trades or interests how they did before the AI bubble bloomed. But if they want to earn a living doing i…

I went through something like that transition the first time I moved into management. It took me by surprise how much I tied what I did to who I was, and how much it bothered me that I could no longer so easily articulate what I'd done during a day at work. It was no longer I made this, I made that, I added these features, I fixed those bugs. It was all relational. It was all meetings and conversations. It felt like…

These passages, right here:

> But the critical change was that I now saw my value in enabling the success of others - our team, the teams that relied on our platform and products, our customers and clients - and so I loved my job (for the most part).

> This doesn't directly relate to AI but does show that it's possible to go through a transition where you lose a big part - or all - of what you thought gave you value, status, and satisfaction in a role, and grow into something new and valuable as a result of that.

> Represent the perspectives I was hoping to invite with my comment. The paragraph immediately following these was equally great.

I’ve read a lot of interesting remarks about people who’ve gone back and forth between programming and management positions in tech and I can relate to the experience in some ways.

What you and the author are describing is legitimate. And I think that your experience occurring while making an apparent step forward in your profession (as opposed to the step backwards that AI imposes) indicates something…special about man, his craft and its relation to himself and his perceived value to others (or lack thereof) while practicing his craft.

I think this is a common thing, generally speaking. On one end, there are plenty of people in other (less-paying, less-appealing) industries who have gone through these kind of experiences—past and present—so it’s easy for someone like me to feel apathetic in this case.

For better or worse it’s a privilege that there are some people who are able to articulate their particular circumstances, under a shared shade.

I guess this is the point where the Marxists begin to revel in the bourgeois gaining “class consciousness”. I haven’t checked on all the literature to be sure how that often turns out in history.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#37

Post by eloisius »

heliographe wrote: post #6
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #5

I can relate. I treat my coding as a craft. That has become much easier, since retiring. I'm quite aware that doing things my way isn't commercially viable, but no one pays me to do it. I do it for myself. That said, I find that it's important to always be challenging myself[0]. [0] https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/thats-not-what-ships...

> I'm quite aware that doing things my way isn't commercially viable Depends what you mean by “commercially viable”. I’ve been making high quality products as an independent software developer in the photography space for a bit over 2 years now, and while I’m nowhere near my former big tech company salary, I still make more than needed to pay for life every month (not living an extravagant lifestyle somewhere with ri…

Cool apps btw. The trichromy one is a lot of fun. Cool that you’re earning money making this.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#38

Post by pettertb »

tolerance wrote: post #2

Was the pleasure of writing code that the author describes tied to the actual practice or its profits? My impression is that many white collar workers felt that their jobs and accompanying status were immutable. They’re not. Couldn’t they have seen this coming? Nothing prevents people from continuing on with their trades or interests how they did before the AI bubble bloomed. But if they want to earn a living doing i…

That is not how people work, especially if they want to do good work. You need to imbue your career with a little bit of your identity, a little bit of your soul. Coding, auto-repair, horse-rearing, plumbing, accountancy, what have you.

You do well to limit this somewhat. But it is inevitable, if you want to achieve anything. You are going to end up smelling somewhat like your work clothes, no matter your industry, no matter the year.

We can't all have the mission statement "to make money", if the machines of money-making are to function. You would never have the nevessary skills that way.

Not saying that we do well to spend the next 30 years griping, we don't. But don't shame people from being hurt by the whims of business. People need to grieve lost stuff, goes for AI, goes for "auto plant went out of business", goes for anything.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#39

Post by sfn42 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #5

I can relate. I treat my coding as a craft. That has become much easier, since retiring. I'm quite aware that doing things my way isn't commercially viable, but no one pays me to do it. I do it for myself. That said, I find that it's important to always be challenging myself[0]. [0] https://littlegreenviper.com/miscellany/thats-not-what-ships...

I'm not sure what your way is exactly but I also treat coding as a craft and I'd say it's far more commercially viable than what most other devs are doing. I design systems that are efficient, do what they need to do and nothing else, are well tested, quite easy to understand, work with and change etc.

The only thing about my way of working that I have commercial viability issues with is when I take over someone else's work and insist on basically rewriting the entire thing before actually continuing the work. I don't always do that, some projects are just too big and some are just fine, some projects don't need me to rewrite them. But most systems I've inherited have been absolute ass and I just refuse to build on a total shit foundation. First I fix the foundation, then I build on it. You want a code monkey to duct tape things together and add workarounds on top of workarounds until the codebase looks like Escher's stairs painting you'll have to find someone else to do it. I fix problems I don't just paint over them.

That has been a problem in some situations in the past but for the most part my work has been appreciated.

Re: Our efforts, in part, define us

#40

Post by lomase »

andrewstuart wrote: post #13

I became a computer programmer because I want the computer to do things. I’m not a programmer because I wanted to program. Thus AI is incredibly exciting to me because it makes it easier to make computers do things.

Because I became a programmer using LLMs to code makes it harder to make computer do things.
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