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Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

julian.ac

31–40 of 266 posts

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#31
>they somehow jump to the conclusion that AI will never be able to do these tasks at human level

I don’t see that, I mostly see AI criticism that it’s not up to the hype, today. I think most people know it will approach human ability, we just don’t believe the hype that it will be here tomorrow.

I’ve lived through enough AI winter in the past to know that the problem is hard, progress is real and steady, but we could see a big contraction in AI spending in a few years if the bets don’t pay off well in the near term.

The money going into AI right now is huge, but it carries real risks because people want returns on that investment soon, not down the road eventually.

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#32
post #18

> Given consistent trends of exponential performance improvements over many years and across many industries, it would be extremely surprising if these improvements suddenly stopped. I'm sure people were saying that about commercial airline speeds in the 1970's too. But a lot of technologies turn out to be S-shaped, not purely exponential, because there are limiting factors. With LLM's at the moment, the limiting fac…

Yes. It's true that we don't know, with any certainty, (1) whether we are hitting limits to growth intrinsic to current hardware and software, (2) whether we will need new hardware or software breakthroughs to continue improving models, and (3) what the timing of any necessary breakthroughs, because innovation doesn't happen on a predictable schedule. There are unknown unknowns.[a] However , there's no doubt that at…

I hope the crash won't be unprecedented as well...

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#33
post #4

> Again we can observe a similar trend, with the latest GPT-5 already astonishingly close to human performance: I have issues with "human performance" as single data point in times where education keeps to excel in some countries and degrades in others. How far away are we from saying, better than "X percent of humans" ?

Nah, that part is ok. Human wherever you set it, human competence takes decades to really change, and those things have visible changes ever year or so.

The problem with all of the article's metrics is that they are all absolutely bullshit. It just throws claims like that AI can write full programs 50% of the time by itself in there and moves on like if it had any resemblance to what happens on the real world.

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#34
post #14

> Given consistent trends of exponential performance improvements over many years and across many industries, it would be extremely surprising if these improvements suddenly stopped. I'm sure people were saying that about commercial airline speeds in the 1970's too. But a lot of technologies turn out to be S-shaped, not purely exponential, because there are limiting factors. With LLM's at the moment, the limiting fac…

Yes exponential is only an approximation of the first part of S curves. And this author claims that he understands the exponential better than others…

the author is an anthropic employee

if the money dries up because the investors lose faith on the exponential continuing, then his future looks much dimmer

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#36
post #32
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It's true that we don't know, with any certainty, (1) whether we are hitting limits to growth intrinsic to current hardware and software, (2) whether we will need new hardware or software breakthroughs to continue improving models, and (3) what the timing of any necessary breakthroughs, because innovation doesn't happen on a predictable schedule. There are unknown unknowns.[a] However , there's no doubt that at…

I hope the crash won't be unprecedented as well...

I hope so too. Capital spending on AI appears to be holding up the entire economy:

https://am.jpmorgan.com/us/en/asset-management/adv/insights/...

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#38

> Given consistent trends of exponential performance improvements over many years and across many industries, it would be extremely surprising if these improvements suddenly stopped. I'm sure people were saying that about commercial airline speeds in the 1970's too. But a lot of technologies turn out to be S-shaped, not purely exponential, because there are limiting factors. With LLM's at the moment, the limiting fac…

> I'm sure people were saying that about commercial airline speeds in the 1970's too.

Or CPU frequencies in the 1990's. Also we spent quite a few decades at the end of the 19th century thinking that physics was finished.

I'm not sure that explaining it as an "S curve" is really the right metaphor either, though.

You get the "exponential" growth effect when there's a specific technology invented that "just needs to be applied", and the application tricks tend to fall out quickly. For sure generative AI is on that curve right now, with everyone big enough to afford a datacenter training models like there's no tomorrow and feeding a community of a million startups trying to deploy those models.

But nothing about this is modeled correctly as an "exponential", except in the somewhat trivial sense of "the community of innovators grows like a disease as everyone hops on board". Sure, the petri dish ends up saturated pretty quickly and growth levels off, but that's not really saying much about the problem.

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#39
>People notice that while AI can now write programs, design websites, etc, it still often makes mistakes or goes in a wrong direction, and then they somehow jump to the conclusion that AI will never be able to do these tasks at human levels, or will only have a minor impact. When just a few years ago, having AI do these things was complete science fiction!

Both things can be true, since they're orthogonal.

Having AI do these things was complete fiction 10 years ago. And after 5 years of LLM AI, people do start to see serious limits and stunted growth with the current LLM approaches, while also seeing that nobody has proposed another serious contended to that approach.

Similarly, going to the moon was science finction 100 years ago. And yet, we're now not only not in Mars, but 50+ years without a new moon manned landing. Same for airplanes. Science fiction in 1900. Mostly stale innovation wise for the last 30 years.

A lot of curves can fit an exponential line plot, without the progress going forward being exponential.

We would have 1 trillion transistor cpus following Moore's "exponential curve"

Re: Failing to Understand the Exponential, Again

#40
Aside from the S-versus-exp issue, this area is one of these things where there's a kind of disconnect between my personal professional experience with LLMs and the criteria measures he's talking about. LLMs to me have this kind of superficially impressive feel where it seems impressive in its capabilities, but where, when it fails, it fails dramatically, in a way humans never would, and it never gets anywhere near what's necessary to actually be helpful on finishing tasks, beyond being some kind of gestalt template or prototype.

I feel as if there needs to be a lot more scrutiny on the types of evaluation tasks being provided — whether they are actually representative of real-world demands, or if they are making them easy to look good, and also more focus on the types of failures. Looking through some of the evaluation tasks he links to I'm more familiar with, they seem kind of basic? So not achieving parity with human performance is more significant than it seems. I also wonder, in some kind of maxmin sense, whether we need to start focusing more on worst-case failure performance rather than best-case goal performance.

LLMs are really amazing in some sense, and maybe this essay makes some points that are important to keep in mind as possibilities, but my general impression after reading it is it's kind of missing the core substance of AI bubble claims at the moment.

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