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They Thought They Were Free (1955)
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Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
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To help me take this argument seriously, could you give a specific examples of when the shoe was on the first foot? Like > a few years ago when people were being sentenced to prison for memes are you talking about the guy whose memes tricked thousands of people (of one political party) into thinking they could vote by texting a number?
You may want to read the Appeals Court ruling that overturned his conviction 3-0 because the government lied.
But also consider the point that everyone has a reason why their exact situation is different than the other sides when the outcome is the same. They would say for example that Kimmel was simply deplatformed because he also spread misinformation.
There’s no way out until everyone agrees it is the outcome that matters rather than doubling down because their ideology is so correct that it is beyond contestation and the other side are enemies destroying democracy rather than rivals.
Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hitler didn’t do well by the people. Real wages declined throughout Nazi reign. Their lands were destroyed. They were responsible for allowing genocide. Source: Rise and Fall of the Third Reich The article shows how he lulled them step by step and diverted them from knowing this was worse than before. Sound familiar USA?
They just lost the war. Had they won the war(s), their fortunes would have been different. We can hate the guy but he was not going to conquer Europe with the Germans and then sit at it empty.
One of the reasons they specifically lost the war was because Hitler was such a fuck up that he was decimating the German economy. When you look at how the war was progressing, the only outcome for the Nazis at the time was either defeat or collapse. Combined with the endemic usage of Pervitin and other drugs at this time both to fuel soldiers and keep the citizens relatively placated they were burning up everything both at the frontline and at home.
Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)
#34> "Your ‘little men,’ your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better.[...]"
I read this book a few years ago and I can't stop thinking about this line of discourse (there's more of this subject in the book). I've felt this exceptional frustration and disgust towards the (in my opinion) wildly underreacting non-fascist millions in the States, more so than the fascists themselves, which seemed contradictory.
The closest I've come to communicating why is that one group is on script while the other isn't. For example, a deadly airborne disease is awful, but the truly scary thing to me would be witnessing doctors and immunologists just kind of shrugging their shoulders.
I grew up with this belief that for all their loud, obnoxious quirks and faults, Americans do not fuck around when it comes to their principles of liberty and freedom. I always admired that. I remember thinking it was a feature that they're so quick to protest and make a scene. I had, without any doubt in my heart and soul, anticipated total disaster. I was expecting to see protests and riots and fires and further uncelebrated but deemed necessary violence in response to the slow ablation of freedom and liberty.
It's quite possible that I'm wrong and that total disaster is premature. But never before have I felt this certain about an "everyone else is wrong" belief. It's scary and somewhat lonely. Reading this book made me feel much less lonely, and much more scared.
Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)
#35I wonder how many people interpret this based on “the other side” rather than objectively?
This post from 2003 has made the rounds several times in recent years... "The 14 Characteristics of Fascism" https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html ...and I recall people reading it and saying they don't see how Donald Trump ticks the boxes. It's all very tedious to complain about when half the electorate supports it. It makes one feel like a nag and a broken record.
There are clearly very many countries that tick most of those boxes. Including some that i wouldn't necessarily define as fascist. Prominent examples are China, Russia, Iran North Korea and other middle eastern countries. I'm not saying this list is incorrect, per se, but it is vague to the point of uselessness.
Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)
#36No, they noticed. 90 years ago, 2/3 of the world's books were in Germany. They were educated and literate and knew what they were doing and what was happening. Germans were acutely aware of the reality of the day to day situation and their previous history in WW1.
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> Hitler did well by the Germans.
That's an insanely stupid claim. Jews were systematically stigmatized and eventually sent to extermination camps. What we now call LGBT people and political opponents got the same treatment. Syndicalists too: one of the first thing Hitler did was make unions illegal. And even the "aryans" that supported him, saw their work hours get longer and longer and the pay smaller and smaller.
And let's not speak of the millions dying in a pointless war that ruined Europe.
Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
This post from 2003 has made the rounds several times in recent years... "The 14 Characteristics of Fascism" https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html ...and I recall people reading it and saying they don't see how Donald Trump ticks the boxes. It's all very tedious to complain about when half the electorate supports it. It makes one feel like a nag and a broken record.
There are clearly very many countries that tick most of those boxes. Including some that i wouldn't necessarily define as fascist. Prominent examples are China, Russia, Iran North Korea and other middle eastern countries. I'm not saying this list is incorrect, per se, but it is vague to the point of uselessness.
I mean, as far as fascist states go China, Russia and North Korea are pretty up there?
In the original "14 points" [0], the author explains this is not an exhaustive checklist that makes something fascist if it ticks all of the items, and gives motivation for such a list. Go read it if you have time to, it's rather short and well written.
> Fascism became an all-purpose term because one can eliminate from a fascist regime one or more features, and it will still be recognizable as fascist. Take away imperialism from fascism and you still have Franco and Salazar. Take away colonialism and you still have the Balkan fascism of the Ustashes. Add to the Italian fascism a radical anti-capitalism (which never much fascinated Mussolini) and you have Ezra Pound. Add a cult of Celtic mythology and the Grail mysticism (completely alien to official fascism) and you have one of the most respected fascist gurus, Julius Evola.
> But in spite of this fuzziness, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.
[0] https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fasci...
Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)
#38Posted here multiple times before: - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42943973 (02/2025, 473 comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25083315 (11/2020, 382 comments) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31042304 (04/2022, 239 comments)
Spaced repetition promotes learning.
Seriously though, this is the first time I've seen it (and I visit HN daily).
Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)
#39"…it consumed all one’s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time." Well, that resonated just a bit. Oh well, back to doomscrolling.
Excerpts from this have popped up in Reddit comments quite a bit the last few years. At first it did feel out of place, but now I'm going going back and listening to Dan Carlin talk about the headspace of society before something like Nazi Germany happens. With all the Executive Orders and lawlessness from the Executive Branch and throughout our federal government with this new regime, it's pretty clear they're attem…
Wasnt Germany better off in the decades following WW2 than the British that defeated them?
Re: They Thought They Were Free (1955)
#40Free societies are not ruled by decree.