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Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

rykarn.se

31–40 of 76 posts

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#31

It's been almost two decades and we're still taking steps backwards on accessibility and features because of Wayland. From day 0 Wayland put their idea of a beautiful design above the needs of users. It's hard to see how we can claim to be inclusive when even our most basic decisions are hostile to large groups of users. I never thought I would say this, but after 30 years of open source and Linux I don't see much of…

> Everyone I know from the community back then has moved on to using a Mac because of these issues.

It's your bubble.

At the same time, I know many who have been forced to use Macs (macOS is new windows), but keep using Linux outside of work.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#32
I am a part of the Talon community mentioned here, use Orca, have contributed to the Rust atspi bindings and feel like I know Linux accessibility quite well.

It is true to in Wayland you can write protocol extensions or custom compositors to get around these limitations. However, what many fail to realize is that the primary challenge in Linux accessibility is not just a technical problem as it is getting people to actually implement specs and care about it. Even with atspi itself, a standard that has existed for over a decade, major apps like Firefox often do not implement the atspi Collection interface. This is not a criticism but rather a practical statement that accessibility needs to be standardized and easy to implement for it to actually have any use. Orca works on Wayland but only in certain compositors. For assistive technology software developers, this pattern of supporting specific compositors is not feasible. It is important to understand that we need to support assistive tech generally. Not just ad hoc extensions for certain types of disabilities.

Wayland has no concept of global coordinates or global key bindings. The protocol itself is designed around atomicity which is a nice concept, but is fundamentally in conflict to the need of assistive technologies to control the entire state of the desktop globally. As such, atspi methods like get_accessible_at_point are impossible in Wayland.

I agree that X11 cannot be carried on forever, but with the current state of Wayland, the phasing out of X11 will have the effect of drastically harming the accessibility ecosystem. Accessibility is not a "nice to have", it is essential to the mission of community inclusion and wider goals of adopting desktop Linux in education and government.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#33
All of this was well known when Wayland was developed. They just didn't give a shit about end-users. They had one or two specific things they personally wanted done, and they made sure that was supported, and that's it. And then a few major players decide they're going to push for this new system to become the system, so it's not just "a bad alternative", it's an unavoidably bad fate.

This isn't the first case like this. The Linux desktop ecosystem has been getting worse for years, as a few major players force systemic changes that make the system more complex, more brittle, and less compatible [with anything that came before it, or that doesn't use the same core components]. I've been using a Linux desktop for 25 years and it's never been more complicated or broken.

It's part of a larger trend of tech enshittification, but seems especially sad in the Open Source world. I always figured a decentralized, leaderless ecosystem could fight incumbent stagnation and selfishness, through the creation of alternatives. But some things there's just no alternative to. And apparently the list of things without alternatives grows.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#34
post #14

The Wayland protocol "lacks" some things "by design" in that they are not specified. However, this is not intentional omissions, not even under the guise of "security", it's stuff that simply hasn't been done yet. The most promising work towards improving accessibility support in Wayland was the work done on the Newton protocol: https://blogs.gnome.org/a11y/2024/06/18/update-on-newton-the... Unfortunately, the projec…

> The Wayland protocol "lacks" some things "by design" in that they are not specified. However, this is not intentional omissions, not even under the guise of "security", it's stuff that simply hasn't been done yet. Two things: First, yes, a lot of Wayland's missing features absolutely were intentional omissions in the name of security. This is even almost understandable; the only difference between a vital a11y tool…

> Two things: First, yes, a lot of Wayland's missing features absolutely were intentional omissions in the name of security. This is even almost understandable; the only difference between a vital a11y tool and horrible malware is whether the software acts on behalf of the user or against them, there is no technical distinction. Second... Wayland is almost 17 years old. If it was 2010, I would readily accept that it was early WIP software, but we're past the point where 'they just haven't gotten there yet' is convincing.

Firstly, the problem is when you put it this way, people think that Wayland can't do accessibility, or screen capture, or automation. It is true that it is intentional that a Wayland program can't simply expect there to just be the ability to go and read screen contents (or inject inputs, or intercept input, or ...) without permission, but that's not just security, I think that's also somewhat a result of the fact that the Wayland core protocol is really not applicable to any specific use cases, and is really just the bare bones necessary for programs to talk to a compositing system. For example, you can't really do proper desktop applications as we know them without something like xdg-shell, which isn't part of the core Wayland protocols, and yet it's totally possible to have Wayland protocols that do things like screen capture, and they can be as "standard" as the ecosystem wants. (Unfortunately that stuff usually gets relegated to DBus presumably because nobody actually wants to support authorization on the Wayland side, but oh well.) To put it more clearly, there is absolutely no reason that Wayland desktop systems can't just expose every bit of functionality X.org allowed to all apps if they want to, security be damned, and the protocols can be standardized; wlroots compositors usually do basically this after all, and I think these days the protocols are all ext protocols upstreamed to wayland-protocols. (And in practice, secure alternatives that allow for proper automation/accessiblity/etc. are very likely to exist and be supported by all major desktops in the long run.) I think people get the wrong idea that Wayland is telling them they can't ever do this, but it's really just telling application developers they can't absolutely count on being able to do it like they can in X.org.

Secondly, the "Wayland is x years old" thing just doesn't make sense, this has to stop. This isn't a project with full time employees like at your job, it's a distributed open source effort. The investments are incredibly uneven both over time and for specific areas of interest. Until about 10 years ago, Wayland was basically not usable at all for almost anybody, and until the last few years the vast majority of Linux users were using NVIDIA GPUs and couldn't really use Wayland without pretty terrible bugs (XWayland was especially broken. AFAIK to this day NVIDIA is working through XWayland issues that never existed on AMD/Intel.) The momentum Wayland had back when nobody could really use it was pretty damn bad. This isn't really terribly unusual for open source projects of this nature though; I mean look at how catastrophically long it took for GIMP 3.0 to come out, and that is a lot less complex and multifaceted than entire desktop systems.

I'm not saying that the initial work done on Wayland was bad or not important, but the majority of work done on making Wayland usable in real life happened in the past few years. 17 years ago or so, all that existed of Wayland in practice were some ideas about how to design a graphical interface system to succeed X.org. (and at that time, Wayland's design was probably too radical anyways: I don't think it's clear that all Linux users would've accepted things about Wayland that hardly anyone complains about today, like the pervasive use of compositing without a traditional fallback. Today X.org is basically the only commonly used windowing system that can properly operate without some form of compositing.)

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#35

sounds like some peeps could contribute code to fix wayland / compositors to enable talon's accessibility hooks :D

By all means feel free, but know that you commit yourself to an endless task; every compositor has to have every feature implemented independently. The big two, GNOME and KDE, will need to be handled completely independently. After that, you can ease the process by getting support into wlroots, but that merely makes it easier per compositor; you'll still need to submit patches to every consumer of the library to actu…

You're essentially encouraging people to give up and leave it broken.

Sure, a lot of code changes need to happen, but they only need to happen once. There's no real reason to discourage people from stepping closer to the end goal.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

xwayland still exists for backwards compatibility.

xwayland exists for application compatibility, but is essentially worthless for a11y tools

Accessibility wasn't strongly broken so I didn't think that commentor was talking about that.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#37
post #14

The Wayland protocol "lacks" some things "by design" in that they are not specified. However, this is not intentional omissions, not even under the guise of "security", it's stuff that simply hasn't been done yet. The most promising work towards improving accessibility support in Wayland was the work done on the Newton protocol: https://blogs.gnome.org/a11y/2024/06/18/update-on-newton-the... Unfortunately, the projec…

> The Wayland protocol "lacks" some things "by design" in that they are not specified. However, this is not intentional omissions, not even under the guise of "security", it's stuff that simply hasn't been done yet. Two things: First, yes, a lot of Wayland's missing features absolutely were intentional omissions in the name of security. This is even almost understandable; the only difference between a vital a11y tool…

Things don't get done in projects by themselves regardless of whether they're 1, 5 or 15 years old.

Major distros and DEs only recently started actually migrating to Wayland by default and only now you can see a decent variety of new nicknames in various development channels.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#38

All of this was well known when Wayland was developed. They just didn't give a shit about end-users. They had one or two specific things they personally wanted done, and they made sure that was supported, and that's it. And then a few major players decide they're going to push for this new system to become the system, so it's not just "a bad alternative", it's an unavoidably bad fate. This isn't the first case like t…

If a good bit of what you’re writing about wasn’t “fire and motion” on Red Hat’s part, the effect, at least, is the same: it’s harder to justify picking a distro other than one connected to Red Hat than it’s ever been before.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#39
post #13

I was speaking at a conference recently and was asked to chair the session at the last minute. It was hybrid, so all the speakers needed to share their slides on Zoom. I have been daily driving Linux for 14 years, and this has almost never been a problem (there was a moment with i3 but it seems better). But I hadn't bothered to test this since installing (and generally loving!) PopOS COSMIC. The problem, at root, is…

> The problem, at root, is Wayland.

Screen sharing worked fine for me on Wayland 3+ years ago (and still works today), so Wayland isn't inherently the issue.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Wayland protocol "lacks" some things "by design" in that they are not specified. However, this is not intentional omissions, not even under the guise of "security", it's stuff that simply hasn't been done yet. Two things: First, yes, a lot of Wayland's missing features absolutely were intentional omissions in the name of security. This is even almost understandable; the only difference between a vital a11y tool…

> Two things: First, yes, a lot of Wayland's missing features absolutely were intentional omissions in the name of security. This is even almost understandable; the only difference between a vital a11y tool and horrible malware is whether the software acts on behalf of the user or against them, there is no technical distinction. Second... Wayland is almost 17 years old. If it was 2010, I would readily accept that it…

but wayland actually can't do accessibility. If it needs custom protocols that are not part of wayland, then wayland itself isn't the one enabling it
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