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Performance Improvements in .NET 10

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 10

#31

Post by Rohansi »

PaulHoule wrote: post #12
Varelion wrote: post #3

If only they could fix the ecosystem's stability; I feel like anything written with C#'s staple packages becomes outdated considerably faster than any other options.

I haven't written C# professionally since the early 2010s but back then the language had a big problem in that the old Container classes were not compatible with the Container classes that were added when they added generics to C#. This created an ugly split in the ecosystem because if you were using Container you could not pass it to an old API that expected a Container. Java on the other hand had an implementation…

This hasn't been an issue for a long time because nobody uses the non-generic collections anymore. That doesn't help you with your reliance on type erasure though.

If you're up for it you should give it another try. Your example of subclassing GenericType and GenericType may be supported with covariance and contravariance in generics [1]. It's probably not very well known among C# developers (vs. basic generics) but it can make some use cases a lot easier.

[1] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/standard/generics/c...

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 10

#32

Post by rudedogg »

bob1029 wrote: post #25
rudedogg wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wishful thinking. It’s the same as other layers we have like auto-vectorization where you don’t know if it’s working without performance analysis. The complexity compounds and reasoning about performance gets harder because the interactions get more complex with abstractions like these. Also, the more I work with this stuff the more I think trying to avoid memory management is foolish. You end up having to th…

Use of a GC does not imply we are trying to avoid memory management or no longer have a say in how memory is utilized. Getting sweaty chasing around esoteric memory management strategies leads to poor designs, not good ones.

> Getting sweaty chasing around esoteric memory management strategies

I’m advocating learning about, and understanding a couple different allocation strategies and simplifying everything by doing away with the GC and minimizing the abstractions you need.

My guess is this stuff used to be harder, but it’s now much easier with the languages and knowledge we have available. Even for application development.

See https://www.rfleury.com/p/untangling-lifetimes-the-arena-all...

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 10

#33

Post by doctorpangloss »

verdie-g wrote: post #18
andix wrote: post #13

Whenever I read about those yearly performance improvements, I wonder if there are some real world benchmarks. Some applications that were benchmarked on all .NET versions up from Framework 4.7 as a baseline. And all the .NET versions since as a comparison.

In my company running maybe 20K servers on .NET, we get a 10-20% CPU decrease every time we upgrade to the next major.

Running what application?

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 10

#34

Post by kirici »

tracker1 wrote: post #30
sidkshatriya wrote: post #27

Now if only they could bring their focus on performance to windows 11 as a whole. It’s just shocking how much faster vanilla Linux is compared to vanilla windows 11. Edit: by vanilla Linux I mean out of the box installation of your typical distribution e.g. Ubuntu without any explicit optimisation or tuning for performance

What is "vanilla Linux"? Ubuntu+Gnome, Mint+Cinnamon, Fedora+KDE, Arch+COSMIC ..? Each distro, platform and desktop manager and related apps are relatively different, though all work pretty well on modern hardware. I'm currently running PopOS COSMIC alpha with the 6.16-4 kernel via mainline. It's been pretty good, though there have been many rough edges regarding keyboard navigation/support in the new apps.

There happens to be a distro called Vanilla that is Debian-based, atomic, integrates distrobox etc.

https://vanillaos.org/

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 10

#35

Post by andix »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #33
verdie-g wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my company running maybe 20K servers on .NET, we get a 10-20% CPU decrease every time we upgrade to the next major.

Running what application?

20K servers are probably running a lot of different applications I assume.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 10

#36

Post by giancarlostoro »

Varelion wrote: post #3

If only they could fix the ecosystem's stability; I feel like anything written with C#'s staple packages becomes outdated considerably faster than any other options.

Can you provide more examples? I've taken a Win32 application from .NET 3.5, converted it to a .NET Console Application (it was a server with a GUI) to run on .NET 8 with minimal friction, a lot of it wound up me just importing .NET Framework packages anew from NuGet.

What are you looking for out of .NET? The staple packages don't go away as often as in languages like NodeJS

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 10

#37

Post by giancarlostoro »

Varelion wrote: post #11
homebrewer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH aspnet core has been the most stable web framework I've worked in my life. If you have good test coverage, upgrading projects between major versions often takes minutes — because nothing, or almost nothing, gets broken. Some things might get deprecated, but the old way keeps working for years, you can chip away at it slowly over the next year or two. You still need to make sure that everything works, but that's w…

Or hope that key figures, or significant portions of the team don't get laid off. I don't trust Google or Microsoft products for this reason alone.

.NET has been powering StackOverflow for decades. All of .NET itself is MIT Licensed.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 10

#38

Post by throwaway13337 »

C# is definitely fast.

There are some benchmark games that I relied on in the past as a quick check and saw it as underwelming vs rust/c++.

For example:

https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

We see that the fastest C# version is 6 times slower than the rust/c++ implementation.

But that's super deceiving because those versions use arena allocators. Doing the same (wrote this morning, actually) yielded a ~20% difference vs the fastest rust implementation.

This was with dotnet 9.

I think the model of using GC by default and managing the memory when it's important is the sanest approach. Requiring everything to be manually managed seems like a waste of time. C# is perfect for managing memory when you need it only.

I like rust syntactically. I think C# is too object-oriented. But with a very solid standard lib, practical design, good tools, and speed when you need it, C# remains super underrated.

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 10

#39

Post by yread »

whalesalad wrote: post #16

This reads like one of those recipe blogs where you first need to hear about great grandpappy's migration during the potato famine before you can get to the details on how to make cupcakes. First 5 paragraphs are just noise.

To be fair there is like 500 paragraphs of content after it

Re: Performance Improvements in .NET 10

#40

Post by tracker1 »

kirici wrote: post #34
tracker1 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "vanilla Linux"? Ubuntu+Gnome, Mint+Cinnamon, Fedora+KDE, Arch+COSMIC ..? Each distro, platform and desktop manager and related apps are relatively different, though all work pretty well on modern hardware. I'm currently running PopOS COSMIC alpha with the 6.16-4 kernel via mainline. It's been pretty good, though there have been many rough edges regarding keyboard navigation/support in the new apps.

There happens to be a distro called Vanilla that is Debian-based, atomic, integrates distrobox etc. https://vanillaos.org/

Gotcha, wasn't familiar with that Distro.
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