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Amazon must face US nationwide class action over third-party sales

reuters.com

31–40 of 108 posts

Re: Amazon must face US nationwide class action over third-party sales

#31
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sounds like exactly what it is... it's too big of a class to be managed, and therefore should not be? You missed the other 2 of the 3 parts of that argument. >In fact, the very next line is the judge saying: I'm not saying they're objectively right, just that there's more to the argument than "we've wronged too many people to be held accountable".

So it's not really a strawman at all, and it was in fact one of their main arguments. They just also made other arguments on top of that... Seems to me the parent was totally justified in calling it a wild argument.

>and it was in fact one of their main arguments

It really wasn't. If you look at the table of contents, the part about was the class being too big was:

1. in one of the two top level arguments (II)

2. of (II), it was one of 6 sub-arguments (F)

3. of (F), the actual argument is "Plaintiffs Have Not Satisfied Rule 23(b)(3)’s Superiority Requirement.", of which the class was too big was one of three factors. For reference the other two are "the individualized issues on which their claims depend, and the overwhelming evidence that the challenged conduct resulted in lower prices in Amazon’s store"

>Seems to me the parent was totally justified in calling it a wild argument.

It really isn't. The specific legal standard is that if the total time to adjudicate all the class members is large, then class certification should be denied. This seems reasonable to me, at least in isolation. What's the point of a legal case that takes so long to resolve that by the time it's finished, everyone involved would be dead? Again, you might not agree with Amazon's argument that it's too complex to be resolved, and it's fine to deride them for thinking that the case is too complex for the court system to handle, but they're simply not making the claim that they should be let off the hook on the basis of 300 million plaintiffs alone.

Re: Amazon must face US nationwide class action over third-party sales

#32
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately this approach seems to fly all the time for large businesses. Plucky startup takes the 'ask forgiveness rather than permission' approach and ignores a bunch of regulations, legal system doesn't care because they're just a plucky startup. 10 or so years later plucky startup is a massive corpo, another 5 or so years later the legal system catches up but they're a massive corpo making piles of cash and the…

>up but they're a massive corpo making piles of cash and the worst the legal system can do at that point is penalize them with the equivalent of pocket change compared to the piles of cash they made while ignoring those regulations. Examples? Usually when I see this argument being brought up, it's usually something like "[multinational megacorp] fined $x for breaking Belgian privacy laws", and then people pile in say…

Airbnb, lyft, uber, almost any of the last generation of unicorns

Re: Amazon must face US nationwide class action over third-party sales

#33
post #13
post #10

> Amazon argued that the class was too large to be manageable Sorry, we've wronged too many people to be held accountable! What a wild argument.

Looking at Amazon's filings, the argument they made is the following: >Given the unprecedented size of the proposed class consisting of 288 million members, the individualized issues on which their claims depend, and the overwhelming evidence that the challenged conduct resulted in lower prices in Amazon’s store, Plaintiffs have not—and cannot demonstrate that a class action would be manageable. The "individualized i…

> resulted in lower prices in Amazon’s store

lower than what?

Re: Amazon must face US nationwide class action over third-party sales

#35
post #5

It’s quite awful that the best this country can do at "enforcing" antitrust violations is through class action lawsuits. The only people that benefit here are the lawyers on both sides.

That's what a do-nothing Congress gets you.

Our poor representation is an extreme outlier among OECD countries:

https://www.amacad.org/ourcommonpurpose/enlarging-the-house/...

Nordic countries have similar representation to the U.S. in the early 1800s.

Though virtual, Colonial Americans had better representation in Parliament.

Re: Amazon must face US nationwide class action over third-party sales

#36
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's not really a strawman at all, and it was in fact one of their main arguments. They just also made other arguments on top of that... Seems to me the parent was totally justified in calling it a wild argument.

>and it was in fact one of their main arguments It really wasn't. If you look at the table of contents, the part about was the class being too big was: 1. in one of the two top level arguments (II) 2. of (II), it was one of 6 sub-arguments (F) 3. of (F), the actual argument is "Plaintiffs Have Not Satisfied Rule 23(b)(3)’s Superiority Requirement.", of which the class was too big was one of three factors. For referen…

Sorry, I don't agree that any of that fundamentally changes the wild argument that "we've wronged too many people to be held accountable!".

But, hey, I'm just a rando on the internet. Feel free to disregard this comment.

Re: Amazon must face US nationwide class action over third-party sales

#37
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber and Lyft with regard to taxi and contractor/employee laws, Google in regards to privacy, Meta in regards to basically everything...

You haven't identified a specific case in any of the examples so I asked an LLM to do it for you, and came up with two: 1. O'Connor v. Uber Technologies, Inc (2013): So far as I can tell, they settled for $20M, but the settlement allowed uber to continue classifying drivers as contractors. You might be able to spin this as how uber is above the law or whatever, but the alternate take is that the drivers had a weak ca…

I think this is only proving the parent's point, that the legal system is completely unable to deal with the megacorps. Shrug. I don't read those results the same way you do.

Re: Amazon must face US nationwide class action over third-party sales

#38
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and it was in fact one of their main arguments It really wasn't. If you look at the table of contents, the part about was the class being too big was: 1. in one of the two top level arguments (II) 2. of (II), it was one of 6 sub-arguments (F) 3. of (F), the actual argument is "Plaintiffs Have Not Satisfied Rule 23(b)(3)’s Superiority Requirement.", of which the class was too big was one of three factors. For referen…

Sorry, I don't agree that any of that fundamentally changes the wild argument that "we've wronged too many people to be held accountable!". But, hey, I'm just a rando on the internet. Feel free to disregard this comment.

For one, they can still be held to account through individual lawsuits. Also at least part of the reason behind class action lawsuits is to streamline the lawsuit process. If a lawsuit ends up taking 100 years because that's long it takes to adjudicate each class member (which was the case in a prior unrelated lawsuit), then arguably a class action lawsuit is a poor fit. As the saying goes, justice delayed is justice denied. If you're allergic to nuance and want to round these considerations off to "you can't be held to account if you wronged too many people", then go for it, I can't stop you.

Re: Amazon must face US nationwide class action over third-party sales

#39
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at Amazon's filings, the argument they made is the following: >Given the unprecedented size of the proposed class consisting of 288 million members, the individualized issues on which their claims depend, and the overwhelming evidence that the challenged conduct resulted in lower prices in Amazon’s store, Plaintiffs have not—and cannot demonstrate that a class action would be manageable. The "individualized i…

> resulted in lower prices in Amazon’s store lower than what?

Read the rest of the document from amazon, linked in my post.

Re: Amazon must face US nationwide class action over third-party sales

#40
> The consumers’ 2021 lawsuit said Amazon violated antitrust law by restricting third-party sellers from offering their products for lower prices elsewhere on rival platforms while they are also for sale on Amazon.

Holy shit, do Valve next! They do the exact same thing.

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