The great medieval water myth (2013) • Hacker News Board

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#31

Post by like_any_other » Mon, Aug 25, 2025, 2:51 PM UTC

kodt wrote: post #30

legitster wrote: post #19

This isn't really a slam dunk debunking. I get that medieval people knew about good and bad water, and that they had other reasons to prefer small drinks. But it doesn't change the facts that: - Medieval people DID drink constantly (mostly in the form of small drinks) - SOME medieval didn't have access to consistently good water. - Even good water supplies can be tainted There are cases were it was noted that a disea…

The myth often states that water was unsafe to drink, so they drank beer. Suggesting water was never drank. Showing that water was regularly consumed does debunk the myth even if the truth is perhaps in the middle.

> Suggesting water was never drank.

Sounds like a straw man, or at least a weak man [1], debunked, and then the debunking is falsely applied to the whole category.

[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweap...

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#32

Post by clickety_clack » Mon, Aug 25, 2025, 2:57 PM UTC

wat10000 wrote: post #29

niemandhier wrote: post #27

I always assumed that it was more a case of behavior selection: Yes, people did drink water frequently, but those societies and groups that regularly consumed fermented drinks like wine or beer, had on average a lower chance of consuming polluted water. As a result behavior that favored drinking slightly alcoholic drinks became more widespread by selection. This doesn’t require that people actually knew their water s…

This is basically the argument for respecting and following traditions even if nobody can explain why they're done.

I’ve become a lot more circumspect about pushing through Chesterton fences as I’ve gained more experience in life.

I used to believe that we could determine a basis for most decisions from first principles. However, that requires a level of complete a priori knowledge that’s simply unattainable except for extremely niche situations.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#33

Post by kodt » Mon, Aug 25, 2025, 3:19 PM UTC

like_any_other wrote: post #31

kodt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The myth often states that water was unsafe to drink, so they drank beer. Suggesting water was never drank. Showing that water was regularly consumed does debunk the myth even if the truth is perhaps in the middle.

> Suggesting water was never drank. Sounds like a straw man, or at least a weak man [1], debunked, and then the debunking is falsely applied to the whole category. [1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweap...

Perhaps, but you often see the myth written as a quick sentence or two before some beer related article. Academics may not be writing that, but lazy writers will repeat it often.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#34

Post by legitster » Mon, Aug 25, 2025, 3:26 PM UTC

like_any_other wrote: post #31

kodt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The myth often states that water was unsafe to drink, so they drank beer. Suggesting water was never drank. Showing that water was regularly consumed does debunk the myth even if the truth is perhaps in the middle.

> Suggesting water was never drank. Sounds like a straw man, or at least a weak man [1], debunked, and then the debunking is falsely applied to the whole category. [1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweap...

Also known as the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#35

Post by DonHopkins » Mon, Aug 25, 2025, 3:38 PM UTC

kodt wrote: post #30

legitster wrote: post #19

This isn't really a slam dunk debunking. I get that medieval people knew about good and bad water, and that they had other reasons to prefer small drinks. But it doesn't change the facts that: - Medieval people DID drink constantly (mostly in the form of small drinks) - SOME medieval didn't have access to consistently good water. - Even good water supplies can be tainted There are cases were it was noted that a disea…

The myth often states that water was unsafe to drink, so they drank beer. Suggesting water was never drank. Showing that water was regularly consumed does debunk the myth even if the truth is perhaps in the middle.

“It's unpleasantly like being drunk."

"What's so unpleasant about being drunk?"

"You ask a glass of water.”

― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#36

Post by card_zero » Mon, Aug 25, 2025, 4:04 PM UTC

raffael_de wrote: post #17

The relevance of beer with regard to water conservation and safe consumption is _not_ because the alcohol sterilizes the fluid. It's because successfully brewed and unfiltered beer forms a relatively stable ecosystem of unproblematic yeasts and lactic acid bacteria which prevent other unsafe micro organisms to take over and multiply. The hop is actually contributing to chemical conservation, though.

Hops came into use relatively recently, I think? Not yet popular in Britain by the 1500s, anyway. Though used in Holland by that point, and possibly the predecessor (a mixture of herbs called gruit) was antibacterial anyway.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#37

Post by Anthony-G » Mon, Aug 25, 2025, 4:58 PM UTC

The article mentions streams as being a safe source of drinking water for rural communities — as most of the population were during the medieval period.

My mother from rural north-west Ireland drank water from a stream for the first 25 years of her life. There was no running water in her home-place until the late 70s (after she had moved out). Rain water was collected from the gutters in barrels for washing and other uses but water for drinking had to be carried by bucket from a stream 1km away across fields on the side of a hill that were muddy when it rained. I’m guessing drinking water from a stream would have been even more common in the preceding decades and centuries.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#38

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Mon, Aug 25, 2025, 5:07 PM UTC

>> Why are people who have little or no firsthand knowledge of the Middle Ages absolutely convinced they know the facts on this issue?

I used to have these arguments with an older relative, some acute, some chronic, about a) whether the edible part of an urchin is eggs or genitals [1], b) whether urchins with little pebbles and bits of seaweed on them are males, ornamented thusly to attract females [2], c) whether cypress tree sex can be determined by how open wide are their branches [3], d) whether the ruins discovered by Heinrich Schleimann on the coast of Asia Minor are really the ruins of the mythical Troy [4], and, e) whether ascent blackout during free-diving is a thing or not [5].

I've given up. People know what they know, either because their mother told them so when they were young, or because everyone knows, or because they know better than you. If someone's made up their mind that they're right and you're wrong, then they're right, you're wrong and you can't change their mind.

_______________

[1] Genitals.

[2] No, sea urchins do not have eyes.

[3] No, cypress trees have both male and female parts.

[4] Undetermined.

[5] It is.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#39

Post by card_zero » Mon, Aug 25, 2025, 5:39 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #38

>> Why are people who have little or no firsthand knowledge of the Middle Ages absolutely convinced they know the facts on this issue? I used to have these arguments with an older relative, some acute, some chronic, about a) whether the edible part of an urchin is eggs or genitals [1], b) whether urchins with little pebbles and bits of seaweed on them are males, ornamented thusly to attract females [2], c) whether cy…

Sometime you may find this person has stealthily changed his or her mind, and now always thought the other thing, and if you say they previously thought the opposite, you're wrong about that.

Re: The great medieval water myth (2013)

#40

Post by IAmBroom » Tue, Aug 26, 2025, 2:31 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #22

raffael_de wrote: post #17

The relevance of beer with regard to water conservation and safe consumption is _not_ because the alcohol sterilizes the fluid. It's because successfully brewed and unfiltered beer forms a relatively stable ecosystem of unproblematic yeasts and lactic acid bacteria which prevent other unsafe micro organisms to take over and multiply. The hop is actually contributing to chemical conservation, though.

Also, beer production started with boiling the water. So in a sense you sterilize the water and the beer helped preserve it for storage. Watering down wine was also common in the era though, and the mechanism there implies the alcohol and acidity of the wine acted as a minor sterilizer.

Beer production does not involve boiling water.

Alpha-Amylase conversion is optimal (for beer production) at about 140 F/60 C. Second and third extractions occur at about 155 and 175 F, respectively, well below the boiling point.

More importantly, the first extraction only marginally reaches pasteurization temperatures (using low-temp long time parameters), so the majority of liquid in beer inhibits, but does not completely kill, pathogens.