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Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

leonardo.chiariglione.org

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Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#31

Post by jbverschoor »

egeozcan wrote: post #7
jbverschoor wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Enough codecs out there. Just no adoption.

This might be an oversimplification, but as a consumer, I think I see a catch-22 for new codecs. Companies need a big incentive to invest in them, which means the codec has to be technically superior and safe from hidden patent claims. But the only way to know if it's safe is for it to be widely used for a long time. Of course, it can't get widely used without company support in the first place. So, while everyone wa…

Jxl has been around for years.

Av1 for 7

The problem is every platform wants to force their own codec, and get earn royalties from the rest of the world.

They literally sabotaging it. Jxl support even got removed from chrome.

Investment in adopting in software is next to 0.

In hardware it’s a different story, and I’m not sure to what extent which codec can be properly accelerated

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#32

Post by roenxi »

thinkingQueen wrote: post #14
roenxi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s like saying ”where would we be with AI if Google, OpenAI and Nvidia didn’t have an iron grip”. We'd be where we are. All the codec-equivalent aspects of their work are unencumbered by patents and there are very high quality free models available in the market that are just given away. If the multimedia world had followed the Google example it'd be quite hard to complain about the codecs.

That’s hardly true. Nvidia’s tech is covered by patents and licenses. Why else would it be worth 4.5 trillion dollars? The top AI companies use very restrictive licenses. I think it’s actually the other way around and AI industry will actually end up following the video coding industry when it comes to patents, royalties, licenses etc.

Because they make and sell a lot of hardware. I'm sure they do have a lot of patents and licences, but if all that disappeared today it'd be years to decades before anyone could compete with them. Even just getting a foot in the door in TSMC's queue of customers would be hard. Their valuation can likely be justified based on their manufacturing position alone. There is literally no-one else who can do what they do, law or otherwise.

If it is a matter of laws, China would just declare the law doesn't count to dodge around the US chip sanctions. Which, admittedly, might happen - but I don't see how that could result in much more freedom than we already have now. Having more Chinese people involved is generally good for prices, but that doesn't have much to do with market structure as much as they work hard and do things at scale.

> The top AI companies use very restrictive licenses.

These models are supported by the Apache 2.0 license ~ https://openai.com/open-models/

Are they lying to me? It is hard to get much more permissive than Apache 2.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#33

Post by oblio »

newsclues wrote: post #8
mike_hearn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly, nothing. Codec development is slow and expensive. Free codecs only came along at all because Google decided to subsidize development but that became possible only 15 years or so after MPEG was born, and it's hardly a robust strategy. Plus free codecs were often built by acquiring companies that had previously been using IP licensing as a business model rather than from-scratch development.

This is the sort of project that should be developed and released via open source from academia. Audio and video codecs, document formats like PDF, are all foundational to computing and modern life from government to business, so there is a great incentive to make it all open, and free.

You're also describing technologies with universal use and potential for long term rent seeking.

Basically MBA drool material.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#34

Post by chrismorgan »

thinkingQueen wrote: post #11
mike_hearn wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly, nothing. Codec development is slow and expensive. Free codecs only came along at all because Google decided to subsidize development but that became possible only 15 years or so after MPEG was born, and it's hardly a robust strategy. Plus free codecs were often built by acquiring companies that had previously been using IP licensing as a business model rather than from-scratch development.

Not sure why you are downvoted as you seem to be one of the few who knows even a little about codec development. And regarding ”royalty-free” codecs please read this https://ipeurope.org/blog/royalty-free-standards-are-not-fre...

That article is a scare piece designed to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt, to prop up an industry that has already collapsed because everyone else hated them, and make out that they’re the good guys and you should go back to how things were.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#36

Post by oblio »

thinkingQueen wrote: post #14
roenxi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s like saying ”where would we be with AI if Google, OpenAI and Nvidia didn’t have an iron grip”. We'd be where we are. All the codec-equivalent aspects of their work are unencumbered by patents and there are very high quality free models available in the market that are just given away. If the multimedia world had followed the Google example it'd be quite hard to complain about the codecs.

That’s hardly true. Nvidia’s tech is covered by patents and licenses. Why else would it be worth 4.5 trillion dollars? The top AI companies use very restrictive licenses. I think it’s actually the other way around and AI industry will actually end up following the video coding industry when it comes to patents, royalties, licenses etc.

I imagine a chunk of it is also covered by trade secrets and NDAs.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#37

Post by fires10 »

thinkingQueen wrote: post #19
rwmj wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would write a web server? Who would write Curl? Who would write a whole operating system to compete with Microsoft when that would take thousands of engineers being paid $100,000s per year? People don't understand that these companies have huge R&D budgets! (The answer is that most of the work would be done by companies who have an interest in video distribution - eg. Google - but don't profit directly by selling…

Are you really saying that patents are preventing people from writing the next great video codec? If it were that simple, it would’ve already happened. We’re not talking about a software project that you can just hack together, compile, and see if it works. We’re talking about rigorous performance and complexity evaluations, subjective testing, and massive coordination with hardware manufacturers—from chips to displa…

I don't do video because I don't work with it, but I do image compression for fun and no profit. I do use some video techniques due to the type of images I am compressing. I don't release because of the minefield. I do it because it's fun. The simulation runs and other tasks often I kick to the cloud for the larger compute needs.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#38

Post by ddtaylor »

jl6 wrote: post #21
karel-3d wrote: post #15

I... don't understand how AI related to video codecs. Maybe because I don't understand either video codecs or AI on a deeper level.

It has long been recognised that the state of the art in data compression has much in common with the state of the art in AI, for example: http://prize.hutter1.net/ https://bellard.org/nncp/

Some view these as so interconnected that they will say LLMs are "just" compression.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#39

Post by oblio »

Retr0id wrote: post #35
karel-3d wrote: post #15

I... don't understand how AI related to video codecs. Maybe because I don't understand either video codecs or AI on a deeper level.

AI and data compression are the same problem, rephrased.

Which makes Silicon Valley, the TV show, even funnier.

Re: Leonardo Chiariglione – Co-founder of MPEG

#40

Post by ZeroGravitas »

There's nothing obscure about them.

His comment immediately after describes exactly what happened:

> Even before it has ceased to exists, the MPEG engine had run out of steam – technology- and business wise. The same obscure forces that have hijacked MPEG had kept it hostage to their interests impeding its technical development and keeping it locked to outmoded Intellectual Property licensing models delaying market adoption of MPEG standards. Industry has been strangled and consumers have been deprived of the benefits of new technologies. From facilitators of new opportunities and experiences, MPEG standards have morphed from into roadblocks.

Big companies abused the setup that he was responsible for. Gentlemen's agreements to work together for the benefit of all got gamed into patent landmines and it happened under his watch.

Even many of the big corps involved called out the bullshit, notably Steve Jobs refusing to release a new Quicktime till they fixed some of the most egregious parts of AAC licencing way back in 2002.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-shuns-mpeg-4-licensing-t...

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