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EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

cointelegraph.com

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Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#31

Post by Cartoxy »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #15
9rx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM. Does its prevention even help anyway? The adult porn industry is regularly criticized for seeing people choose it over real sexual relationships. Conceivably the same could hold true for CSAM. As in, if you can't access it, you're going to go get the real thing instead. The narrative that it prevents child abuse sounds good in theory, but what does the da…

> what does the data actually tell us? The anecdotal evidence is that most child abusers started with CSAM and continued escalation from there; not that they would have been abusers except for CSAM. While it has never been proven to be a casual link, Ted Bundy, Brian Mitchell, Mark Bridger, Jeffrey Dahmer, and now Bryan Kohberger all accessed violent pornography before taking their actions. Dahmer stated it was his r…

Some promote the honeypot web to catch the tech illiterate perps. Given your position Would you condone?.

I think I would, if your at the point of seeking. But some would say it's causatory.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#32

Post by sackfield »

This pops up every few years, and I bet once it gets in it never goes away. It seems asymmetric that one side only has to win once to win permanently while the other side has to win constantly. Is there any mechanism to stop this in the EU and make this kind of legislation explicitly barred?

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#33

Post by bigbacaloa »

integralid wrote: post #8
superkuh wrote: post #5

Seems like all regions of the world all falling into their own particular flavors of authoritarian fascism. EU's better than most but this is absolutely draconian. We all know this won't actually be feasible to implement but the end result of of this infeasibility will be a status quo where everyone is guilty of a crime by default when needed.

As an EU citizen I don't believe chat control will ever happen. We already had mass protests in my country during the last 20 years against internet and population control, and we will again if this becomes close to reality. Maybe I'm delusional and I'll be severely disappointed I'm my country and the EU, but I don't think so. Who knows, time will tell.

[dead]

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#34

Post by orwin »

If this pass: the EUCJ will likely kill most of the proposal, once again we will hear 'judges are against democracy and for pedocriminals', once again the EUCJ will have to justify itself and spend political power and allow a sliver of the law to pass (my bet on age verification).

The issue is that the EU courts are easy to predict. I'm not afraid of this law for itself because I know how the EU works and this will be challenged. I'm afraid of this because once again the 'center right' (i.e liberals) and the traditional right manage to move power away from courts.

'Les irresponsables' should be translated asap in German, English and any other language in the EU, and hopefully politicians will find a mirror in this book and stop worsening everything.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#35

Post by graemep »

nemomarx wrote: post #29
integralid wrote: post #25

I'm against any kind of censorship, chat scanning and privacy violations. Nevertheless: >Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not sign…

I think the post office screening letters to be sure terrorists aren't sending them would also be pretty bad

The UK recently introduced machine readable codes on postage stamps so they can now collect metadata on letters.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#36

Post by myrmidon »

izzydata wrote: post #10

I assume this is just a police state overreach rather than genuine intent to stop crime. They must know that anyone actually engaging in criminal activity is going to not be caught by this because they use other forms of encrypted communication.

I'm not saying that this is NOT police state overreach, but the assumption that all (or even most) criminals practice good operational security still seems laughable to me.

I think you are letting your ideological alignment (against surveillance state) push you into irrational standpoints ("more surveillance would not catch additional criminals").

I'm 100% with you on opposing legislation like this, but it is very important to not delude oneself about its likely effects, and to pick the right hills to die on, figuratively speaking.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#37

Post by azmodeus »

sackfield wrote: post #32

This pops up every few years, and I bet once it gets in it never goes away. It seems asymmetric that one side only has to win once to win permanently while the other side has to win constantly. Is there any mechanism to stop this in the EU and make this kind of legislation explicitly barred?

Vote them out and never vote for their parties in your general elections

If your Member of European Parliament supports chat control stop voting for their parties and politically support their opposition

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#38

Post by gjsman-1000 »

9rx wrote: post #26
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what does the data actually tell us? The anecdotal evidence is that most child abusers started with CSAM and continued escalation from there; not that they would have been abusers except for CSAM. While it has never been proven to be a casual link, Ted Bundy, Brian Mitchell, Mark Bridger, Jeffrey Dahmer, and now Bryan Kohberger all accessed violent pornography before taking their actions. Dahmer stated it was his r…

However, the anecdotal evidence around the regular adult porn industry is that users go in the opposite direction. The data is abundantly clear that people, especially young people, are having less sex, all while porn consumption has increased substantially. Likewise, causality hasn't been proven, but it is likely the most compelling answer. Why it is it different? At what rate have child abuses declined?

It's hard to know because while less sex is occurring; anecdotally (look around on TikTok), people are bringing violent and dangerous behaviors into the bedroom like never before.

Sexual choking has gone from a fringe behavior, into something that a study (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02937-y) found over 50% of young Australians had tried; even though almost anyone with a medical background finds that extremely dangerous. This is a behavior that compounds, with women who went through it four times "safely" having brain damage markers in their blood (https://osf.io/preprints/psyarxiv/c6zbv_v1). This is also why the UK (not sure if they did it yet) was even talking about banning all depictions, after an independent study said it was popularly perceived as "safe and common" among Gen Z.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#39

Post by W3zzy »

integralid wrote: post #25

I'm against any kind of censorship, chat scanning and privacy violations. Nevertheless: >Telegram founder Pavel Durov warned that France risks societal collapse if it continues down a path of political censorship and regulatory overreach. Durov was arrested in France in August 2024 after being accused of failing to moderate his app to reduce criminality Telegram is the messenger of choice for cybercriminals (not sign…

It is a flex that will result in great pushbacks. If my government feels the need to monitor all my communication without proper reason I know they're only a step away from using my words against me.

I will oppose any government that outlaws encryption and privacy. There are numerous accounts of peoples personal info being misused for crime. More than there are proven cases of encryption being used by criminals.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#40

Post by 9rx »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #23
9rx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people that are already committed to CSAM are going to CSAM. Does its prevention even help anyway? The adult porn industry is regularly criticized for seeing people choose it over real sexual relationships. Conceivably the same could hold true for CSAM. As in, if you can't access it, you're going to go get the real thing instead. The narrative that it prevents child abuse sounds good in theory, but what does the da…

Even if it were true (and it might be) that these people would commit less-or-none abuse if they can continue to have access to the csam, the existence of the csam itself necessitates abuse. It seems akin to child sacrifice. Whose kid must be tormented so that other kids can go unmolested? That said, not sure that draconian, ubiquitous surveillance is the correct (or even effective) solution to the problem.

> the existence of the csam itself necessitates abuse.

Just as the existence of America as we know it necessitates the pillaging and raping of native tribes. But we're not going to watch over your shoulder to make sure you don't participate in American society and send you to jail if you do. As unfortunate as past damage is, life moves on.

Of course, that it incentivizes production of more CSAM is the logic behind the laws, and that is a pretty compelling reason. However, according to the continuous stream of news reports, a tremendous amount of content has already been produced. How much more content would need to be produced? If the adult porn industry stopped producing new content, nobody would ever really notice. Algorithms do incentivize production of more and more adult porn even as 90% of will never been seen by anyone, for sure, but the law could still take a harder stance on those algorithms if that is the better solution.

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