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Israel relying on Microsoft cloud for expansive surveillance of Palestinians

theguardian.com

31–40 of 57 posts

Re: Israel relying on Microsoft cloud for expansive surveillance of Palestinians

#31
post #29
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would really much want to see which Marx (with Engels or not) writings advocate for mass surveillance. I would also like to see a reference of when did he call for a bourgeoisie massacre.

Then I suggest you actually read the manifest. Oh, I should probably declare you technically correct. He does not call for a massacre, just a violent revolution. These are technically not exactly the same. They turned out the same in practice though.

Violence has been used for good ends such as deposing monarchies and ending slavery. Marx argues that capitalists are akin to the new kings. Witnessing billionaires funding the destruction of democracy, I wouldn’t say he’s wrong.

And you refer to Soviet Russia as if that’s supposed to represent socialism and communism. In fact there are many different kinds of socialists and communists, many who support democracy and oppose authoritarian governments. In fact many such people opposed the Bolsheviks and were killed by them. It’s simply not true that being socialist or communist entails supporting totalitarian government.

Re: Israel relying on Microsoft cloud for expansive surveillance of Palestinians

#32
post #14
post #11

this will probably get flagged in a couple of hours

Was already flagged. I vouched it and it became unflagged. Now it's flagged again... (I don't think every story about this conflict should be on HN by the way, as a "major on-going topic". But IMHO this particular story seemed like a good one as it intersects with tech and is something actually new, at least to some degree).

It's flagged again. What's vouching?

Re: Israel relying on Microsoft cloud for expansive surveillance of Palestinians

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Capitalism is just a reflection of people being self-interested I don't think that's the case. I think most people are not self-interested, or at least not in the selfish sense. I think most people are more than willing to sacrifice _some_ direct personal gain for better community gains. The problem is that capitalism only allows selfish self-interest to flourish, so it incentivises even the more community-oriented…

>or at least not in the selfish sense Wasn't a requirement, self interest doesn't imply malice. >capitalism only allows selfish self-interest to flourish How's that then? >Capitalism is a form of authoritarianism in that it really only serves a few You're cooked, market liberalisation has led the world from >80% in poverty to <10% in under 40 years, even removing huge entities like China.

Poverty reduction has largely been the result of China’s mixed economy not unbridled capitalism. Guided markets have played a role there - but that’s because they were guided. We don’t have to accept the authoritarianism or any of other effect of markets, simply because markets have played a role in some of the positive outcomes of the past. In fact for the last 50 years in the global north, roughly the same timeframe, productivity has continued to grow but most of that growth has accrued to the wealthiest and relatively little of that benefit has been seen by the median worker.

Re: Israel relying on Microsoft cloud for expansive surveillance of Palestinians

#35

This is a story on how technology is used to in a systematic human rights abuse and a massive systemic government sanctioned privacy breach is being facilitated by a major tech company. This story should not be flagged.

It managed to get 105 upvotes despite being flagged. It’s important, relevant and clearly resonating with the audience here. Very shameful to bury it.

Re: Israel relying on Microsoft cloud for expansive surveillance of Palestinians

#36
post #31
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I suggest you actually read the manifest. Oh, I should probably declare you technically correct. He does not call for a massacre, just a violent revolution. These are technically not exactly the same. They turned out the same in practice though.

Violence has been used for good ends such as deposing monarchies and ending slavery. Marx argues that capitalists are akin to the new kings. Witnessing billionaires funding the destruction of democracy, I wouldn’t say he’s wrong. And you refer to Soviet Russia as if that’s supposed to represent socialism and communism. In fact there are many different kinds of socialists and communists, many who support democracy and…

You know as well as I do that when Marx discussed "capitalists" he did not mean the rich. He meant what we now call the middle class. Managers. Engineers. Store owners. (Small) company owners. Factory owners. Smaller landlords. Perhaps upper middle class, but not the real rich, the families. He saw what everyone else in their time (correctly) saw: that larger land owners were mostly outside of cities, and were well on the way to inevitable bankruptcy. That the uber-rich are very different, and aren't rapidly bankrupting themselves is not something Marx foresaw.

Only the governments themselves, who are of course also very, very, rich would retain their wealth. And quite a few governments in his time were individuals or families, but he didn't see them as the enemy, kind of, but not as the "source" of the evil of capitalism. Of course, communists aren't against a very, very rich government. The Soviets initially offered to make Tsar Nicolas II the leader of international socialism. Only when he kept refusing did he become the enemy.

And then the "that wasn't true communism" argument! Thank you. I kind of agree: most other communists were MUCH worse than the Soviets, and especially lacked most of the redeeming qualities the Soviets retained from imperial Russia.

In fact, I miss that about the Soviets. The Soviets were going to conquer Europe, provide housing and jobs for everyone, and get everyone to work and back each day on rocket powered trams. Seriously. Today's socialists just seem to want to destroy everything, which will then encourage Gaia to save the world and care for everyone. The Soviets were very much going to exploit nature to make everyone rich.

Never mind that even the ancient Greeks knew better: the godess Gaia is a Titan who massacred, and then ate people. Men, women, children. Especially children. She was the embodiment of natural disasters, of the primal, absolute force of nature. She killed to save nature, true. But also just for fun, because it is her nature. Especially children. Especially lost children. She was like almost all Titans: considered completely amoral, not necessarily evil, but she needed to be fought, even destroyed, not for fun, because otherwise a LOT of people would die.

Re: Israel relying on Microsoft cloud for expansive surveillance of Palestinians

#37
post #23

While the headline is focused Microsoft the bigger story is the wanton violation of human rights, privacy and using this data in risk scores which I’m certain gets used in automated kill chains by Israel.

Right. However this is a tech/science focused news site so let's keep it that way.

So why is it flagged?

Re: Israel relying on Microsoft cloud for expansive surveillance of Palestinians

#38
post #32
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was already flagged. I vouched it and it became unflagged. Now it's flagged again... (I don't think every story about this conflict should be on HN by the way, as a "major on-going topic". But IMHO this particular story seemed like a good one as it intersects with tech and is something actually new, at least to some degree).

It's flagged again. What's vouching?

There's a "vouch" button on flagged comments and some flagged stories, which will unflag a story. I'm not entirely sure under which conditions it's available on flagged stories (it's almost always there for flagged comments). I think it probably gets disabled after it got flagged → vouched → flagged, or something? You need at least 500 (or more?) reputation points regardless.

Re: Israel relying on Microsoft cloud for expansive surveillance of Palestinians

#39
post #36
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence has been used for good ends such as deposing monarchies and ending slavery. Marx argues that capitalists are akin to the new kings. Witnessing billionaires funding the destruction of democracy, I wouldn’t say he’s wrong. And you refer to Soviet Russia as if that’s supposed to represent socialism and communism. In fact there are many different kinds of socialists and communists, many who support democracy and…

You know as well as I do that when Marx discussed "capitalists" he did not mean the rich. He meant what we now call the middle class. Managers. Engineers. Store owners. (Small) company owners. Factory owners. Smaller landlords. Perhaps upper middle class, but not the real rich, the families. He saw what everyone else in their time (correctly) saw: that larger land owners were mostly outside of cities, and were well o…

You are making so much stuff up. My god it’s insane. Then you act like people haven’t read the super short Manifesto so you can continue your lies

Re: Israel relying on Microsoft cloud for expansive surveillance of Palestinians

#40
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>or at least not in the selfish sense Wasn't a requirement, self interest doesn't imply malice. >capitalism only allows selfish self-interest to flourish How's that then? >Capitalism is a form of authoritarianism in that it really only serves a few You're cooked, market liberalisation has led the world from >80% in poverty to <10% in under 40 years, even removing huge entities like China.

Poverty reduction has largely been the result of China’s mixed economy not unbridled capitalism. Guided markets have played a role there - but that’s because they were guided. We don’t have to accept the authoritarianism or any of other effect of markets, simply because markets have played a role in some of the positive outcomes of the past. In fact for the last 50 years in the global north, roughly the same timefram…

as I said if you remove china from the data the trend is identical.

But regarding China specifically it has been the gradual transition to a more market led economy.

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