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Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren

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Re: Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren

#31

Post by AndrusAsumets »

As a self-taught programmer from Estonia, I would have loved having programming as a subject in the basic school.

Anyhow, the program will not be quite as successful if skilled programmers with long experience weren't included, or children will not be seeing the full scale of possibilites programming the computer could give to them. That, however, will be a tough task since there's a great shortage of developers on the market, and not all of them would fit neatly into the teaching role.

Re: Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren

#32

Post by AndrusAsumets »

jkaljundi wrote: post #22
timc3 wrote: post #18

Skype as far as I know was started by a swede and a Dane. The Estonian connection I think comes from having a large engineering office there.

Actually the whole idea was brainstormed from day one together with 4 Estonian founding engineers. Those 4 together with Janus and Niklas had worked together already for years, first on Tele2 Everyday portals, then Kazaa and Joltid.

It's a common misconception from both sides. Ask who developed Skype from a random Dane or Swede on the street, and they will tell you that it was made by either Danish/Swedish programmers. Approach an Estonian with a question who actually worked for the funding, marketing etc., and they will probably answer it was the Estonians.

Re: Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren

#33

Post by russell »

I recall reading a paper that found that the success at the end of the introductory CS course could be measured before the start of the course by a simple test. It measured their understanding of sequential execution, assignment, recursion and a couple of other things. About one-third failed at the beginning and at the end; one third sort of got it at both ends; and one third were successful. Almost all students ended in the same triad that they started in.

To the question. Do young children, say in the first 4 or so grades, show this division in abilities or do most eventually get it?

Re: Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren

#34

Post by dimitar »

doktrin wrote: post #19
arkitaip wrote: post #11

As a developer I like the idea. As a citizen I wonder why a nation should prioritize programming before any other skill set? Why not rhetoric, drawing or dancing? What are the underlying assumptions and goals of teaching programming at such a young age? Is any of this evidence based?

It is probably economically motivated. Estonia, like many central and eastern European countries, is seeing strong relative growth in their technology sectors. Rhetoric, drawing, dancing & carpentry are not exactly as likely to drive the nation's economy in 2023 when these children graduate from school.

What if they did?

You cannot really predict the future. In the early 90s in my country (Bulgaria) there was an extreme need of accountants and many programmers emigrated (and we had massive amounts of engineers due to socialist planning). Now accountants are not in a short supply and programmers are relatively well paid.

My point is - you really cannot predict the future. Education is supposed to prepare you for life, whatever it may serve you, not to grant you a carrier.

I'm all for having a better education. And maybe a little programming literacy might be really useful. I just seriously hope the Estonian state doesn't expect its future generations to become a nation of programmers.

Re: Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren

#35

Post by mmahemoff »

EliRivers wrote: post #23
mmahemoff wrote: post #15

It's not a country-wide mandate. AFAIK no country/state has compulsory programming classes for any level in the same way they require maths etc ((please tell me if I'm wrong!). If so, that's rather surprising in 2012.

Was it also surprising that no school ever had compulsory classes in agriculture/electricity/plumbing/electronics/medicine/all the other things that cause such changes in society, or is programming somehow special?

I think computer literacy is essential for all professions now (software is eating the world, etc) and I think the most effective way to teach it is by teaching programming, not the kind of dumbed-down word-processor courses that remain popular.

Re: Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren

#36

Post by doktrin »

dimitar wrote: post #34
doktrin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is probably economically motivated. Estonia, like many central and eastern European countries, is seeing strong relative growth in their technology sectors. Rhetoric, drawing, dancing & carpentry are not exactly as likely to drive the nation's economy in 2023 when these children graduate from school.

What if they did? You cannot really predict the future. In the early 90s in my country (Bulgaria) there was an extreme need of accountants and many programmers emigrated (and we had massive amounts of engineers due to socialist planning). Now accountants are not in a short supply and programmers are relatively well paid. My point is - you really cannot predict the future. Education is supposed to prepare you for life…

I think you may be drawing a fairly extreme conclusion from the article (or my comment). It's unlikely the Estonian government intends to breed a nation of programmers. At the same time, it's not exactly reckless to give school age children the necessary foundation to become developers should they so desire.

Re: Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren

#37

Post by duskwuff »

russell wrote: post #33

I recall reading a paper that found that the success at the end of the introductory CS course could be measured before the start of the course by a simple test. It measured their understanding of sequential execution, assignment, recursion and a couple of other things. About one-third failed at the beginning and at the end; one third sort of got it at both ends; and one third were successful. Almost all students ende…

Or - possibly even more interestingly - would introducing these concepts early help students internalize them?

Re: Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren

#38

Post by roguecoder »

CGamesPlay wrote: post #2

My gut reaction is that this is a good idea. It will definitely help develop logic and mathematics skills. I am concerned by the focus on "web and mobile", though. It seems like it would be better to focus on raw computer science for a program like this.

Computer Science is as appropriate for school children as calculus is. It can best be taught in context of making real things where children can see immediate outcomes, but as a "raw" subject it would probably be ignored as dry, boring and irrelevant.

Re: Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren

#39

Post by dsrguru »

timc3 wrote: post #18

Skype as far as I know was started by a swede and a Dane. The Estonian connection I think comes from having a large engineering office there.

Corrective upvote. In the words of Wikipedia, "Skype was founded in 2003 by Janus Friis from Denmark and Niklas Zennström from Sweden" [1]. It would seem the developers were Estonian, but that doesn't make you wrong about its founders. In fact, that makes the article wrong when it says "Skype ... was run by Estonians, until recently was sold to Microsoft [sic]."

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype#cite_ref-14

Re: Computer programming will soon reach all Estonian schoolchildren

#40

Post by ShardPhoenix »

duskwuff wrote: post #37
russell wrote: post #33

I recall reading a paper that found that the success at the end of the introductory CS course could be measured before the start of the course by a simple test. It measured their understanding of sequential execution, assignment, recursion and a couple of other things. About one-third failed at the beginning and at the end; one third sort of got it at both ends; and one third were successful. Almost all students ende…

Or - possibly even more interestingly - would introducing these concepts early help students internalize them?

(I misclicked and downvoted this instead of upvoting, apologies).
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