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New records on Wendelstein 7-X

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31–40 of 112 posts

Re: New records on Wendelstein 7-X

#31
post #5

Does it kill the idea of a tokamak as an energy production device? As in a stellarator proving the much more promising design...

It'll be a question of manufacturing. A tokamak is a fairly simple torus, with at least some similar parts. Stellerators are freakishly complicated 3D structures that require submillimeter precision.

So it might end up being cheaper to construct a larger tokamak.

Re: New records on Wendelstein 7-X

#32
post #26

This article has zero quantifiable information in it aside from the duration... which has no context. Who's recordkeeping this stuff? What are the other results so far? What is the tipping point where it is net positive? how long does it need to sustain a net positive fusion reaction to produce sufficient power for grid consumption? Are there other losses (thermal generation inefficiencies) that make the target even…

[deleted]

Re: New records on Wendelstein 7-X

#33

In any future fusion power plant, a plasma with a high triple product must be maintained for long periods. I love vague terms like "long periods". Long compared to the Planck length? Geological time? Is the advertised 43 seconds almost there or "off by 17 orders of magnitude?"

[flagged]

Re: New records on Wendelstein 7-X

#35

Looking at the picture, I wonder if complexity of these devices will significantly be reduced once it finally works. I assume a lot of the bells and whistles are needed to find the way, but once it's found..

Your question reminds me of the image showing how SpaceX raptor motors evolved https://imgur.com/a/4w3q3lS

Raptor 3 really is quite an achievement. Good on them.

Re: New records on Wendelstein 7-X

#36
post #5

Does it kill the idea of a tokamak as an energy production device? As in a stellarator proving the much more promising design...

Perhaps, unless you fall prey to the sunk cost fallacy and have already spent a bazillion dollars on generations of tokamaks!

Re: New records on Wendelstein 7-X

#37

I've always been somewhat partial to the stellarator design, I mean a big plasma donut is cool and all, but what if we twisted it around a whole bunch first!?

I think gravitational confinement is the way to go - it's the only operationally proven design!

Gotta think big!

Re: New records on Wendelstein 7-X

#38
post #24
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nice thing about fusion reactors is that they don’t blow up but just don’t work anymore.

they have fission reactors that have done that since the 60s (CANDU Reactor). They just don't help you produce nuclear bombs...

CANDU has low intrinsic nuclear proliferation resistance. It can run on natural uranium, so it's easier to fuel than light water reactors which need enriched uranium, and its online fuel-swapping design means that it's easy to switch to low-burnup operation for generating weapons grade plutonium. Current CANDU power reactors have extensive monitoring to confirm that they are used peacefully, but if e.g. South Korea had a security crisis and decided to pursue a crash nuclear weapons program, world opinion be damned, its CANDU based reactors at Wolseong could be quickly reconfigured for weapons purposes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolseong_Nuclear_Power_Plant

Re: New records on Wendelstein 7-X

#39

Looking at the picture, I wonder if complexity of these devices will significantly be reduced once it finally works. I assume a lot of the bells and whistles are needed to find the way, but once it's found..

The real problem with fusion power is that even if they figure it out, it still won't be cost competitive with solar and wind. Economically all the cost of building a "boil some water and turn some turbines" plant is _already_ in the "boiling some water and turning some turbines" part of the generation, and even if the heat part of it was _free_, the rest of it would be too expensive to bother building a plant for it…

True if you look at the cost to build the plant, but it’s hard to colocate enough solar with heavy users, land near there is expensive, and transmission capacity is pretty hard to get built, so something very power dense with a small footprint is helpful. I haven’t dug into the numbers, so I could very well be wrong that it pencils out when you consider those.

And there are efforts to make building out transmission and interconnecting with the grid more streamlined, so maybe some of those problems will be gone by the time fusion’s ready.

Someone said recently that it’s nicer to have bad laws and good tech than a bad tech and good laws, solar+storage seems like it’s in the former now, and if we can clear the bureaucratic hurdles, we’ll see it boom here like we’ve seen elsewhere.

Re: New records on Wendelstein 7-X

#40
post #5

Does it kill the idea of a tokamak as an energy production device? As in a stellarator proving the much more promising design...

Both ideas are pretty old (50s) and in development for a long time. Both designs have their pros and cons. The biggest drawback of the Tokamak however is that it can only be pulsed... which is kind of dumb to actually generate and provide energy in the long run. You really want the Stellarator here, since there it is at least theoretically possible to run "for ever" (not entirely true, but long enough cycles to be used in a power plant).

There are 2 podcast episodes with the guys who run Wendelstein here: http://www.alternativlos.org/51/ (it's German tho)

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