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Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

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Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#31

Post by lazide »

slg wrote: post #14
mdorazio wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual car…

>Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. Although the "choose" here needs to put into societal context. Do women naturally prefer less lucrative careers or has society reinforced that some less lucrative careers are in some way feminine while some more lucrative careers are masculine? Do women naturally want to leave the workforc…

Even women with no children and no plan for children generally do this.

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#32

Post by steveBK123 »

slg wrote: post #14
mdorazio wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual car…

>Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. Although the "choose" here needs to put into societal context. Do women naturally prefer less lucrative careers or has society reinforced that some less lucrative careers are in some way feminine while some more lucrative careers are masculine? Do women naturally want to leave the workforc…

Societal pressure and expectations cut both ways, and I think are starting to harm young men more than young women, and is somewhat explanatory of recent machismo populist political turn in youth voting.

The stats are saying - women enroll and graduate college at higher rates than men, graduate with lower unemployment, and society has spent the last ~60 years correcting a lot of the wrongs that harmed women's choices & freedoms (notwithstanding some recent SCOTUS decisions).

A young woman in 2025 has been brought up in a society that tells them they can do anything, be anything, want anything, etc.

For young men, I firmly believe society expectations haven't really changed at all actually. They are still expected to be providers, and to make educational/career choices & sacrifices to facilitate that.

Very few men are stay at home parents, or make less than their wives. Those that do are not accepted by society the same way as when the roles are reversed. As expectations haven't changed but women have gained economically in relation to men, this sets up a very potent mix of resentment and mismatched singles (high end loser women & low end loser men).

A pattern amongst my richer/older friends I've noticed is that their sons are encouraged to go get STEM degrees to support themselves, while their daughters are encouraged to follow their passions, go work at an NGO, oh and here's a condo in Manhattan we bought for you. I sat on the board of a condo in yuppie Brooklyn a few years, and despite the stereotypes, the majority of trust fund buyers were women now.

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#35

Post by apparent »

slg wrote: post #14
mdorazio wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual car…

>Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. Although the "choose" here needs to put into societal context. Do women naturally prefer less lucrative careers or has society reinforced that some less lucrative careers are in some way feminine while some more lucrative careers are masculine? Do women naturally want to leave the workforc…

> Do women naturally want to leave the workforce and prioritize work-life balance or is that a response to society putting a majority of the parenting responsibility on their shoulders?

Yes, mothers naturally do have a stronger urge to spend time with their babies/small children than men do. One of my male buddies lamented that he couldn't defer his paternity leave until his son was 8, so they could interact more. He had very little interest in spending time with his infant child. This is not uncommon among men, and quite uncommon among women (who bond with the baby when it is gestating inside them, and again when they nurse it, in many cases).

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#38

Post by gruez »

steveBK123 wrote: post #19
mdorazio wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, women get paid the same as men, within the error of measurement, and have for many years. The trope of women making less than men comes from an apples to oranges comparison. Women choose less lucrative careers, leave the workforce more often to care for children, and care more about work-life balance. The result is that on average across the workforce, women make less. But if you look at an individual car…

I think it's not an either-or problem, but a mix. Most of the effect does appear to be job choice, which is driven by degree choice, which is driven by earlier education / coaching by teachers, parents, etc. However, In my experience my female colleagues doing similar things are generally under-compensated BUT, and this is a big BUT.. they also are less aggressive in asking for money. I have had this discussion with…

>However, In my experience my female colleagues doing similar things are generally under-compensated BUT, and this is a big BUT.. they also are less aggressive in asking for money. I have had this discussion with my wife, and every few years she does work up the energy to have the "give me more money" discussion with her boss, which is almost always followed by a best-in-years % raise at next compensation cycle.

If they're actually working in the same jobs, wouldn't this discrepancy show up in the statistics? If all the male senior developers are driving a hard bargain and getting $220k, but the female senior developers aren't and are only getting $200k, it'll still show up as a 10% difference in an apples to apples comparison. The fact that such apples to apples comparison shows minimal difference either means such effect is tiny, or there's a bunch of effects working for females that's canceling out the "males bargain better" effect.

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#39

Post by lazide »

rayiner wrote: post #25
lstamour wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it possible though, that if a role is gender stereotyped or if senior managers are a particular gender, that those of the other gender might need to prove themselves more to get the same job? That managers tend to hire people who appear to fit in, which usually means they are more like themselves, or those who already have the job? Also, it seems weird to suggest that only women have the failings you’ve noted,…

> Also, it seems weird to suggest that only women have the failings you’ve noted, as men can also have the same shortcomings. Why would you portray these as “shortcomings?” E.g. my wife is probably counted as part of the income disparity between men and women, because after our third child she decided she didn’t want to keep working. The choice to do that wasn’t unweighted random coin flip as between the two of us. I…

Because ‘we’re all the same’, and somehow money is everything. Aka the particular crazy of the last 10-30 years in particular.

Re: Rising graduate joblessness is mainly affecting men

#40

Post by lazide »

steveBK123 wrote: post #24
yieldcrv wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Additionally, many women are not mimicking their competition in how the career ladder is approached. There is a fear of coming across as too assertive within the organization she is already employed in . What’s understated is that plenty of men come across as too cocky too and get passed up within the organization and at other organizations. But some men, with the societal incentive to get ahead, continues aiming hig…

Yes I have this conversation with women sometimes where it's like "but if I am assertive and ask for money, my boss will judge me" type of societal norm compliance. And look, maybe they will, but are they going to fire you or cut your pay? No. You don't ask, you don't get.. that is the way of the world. If you constantly try to play it safe, you get less. If you clip your own wings you can't point vaguely at "society…

Fire or cut pay - now they might.
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