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Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

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Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#31

Post by delusional »

ylow wrote: post #18

This is using statistics to tell a preconceived story. Underlying this a notion that foreign workers are simply “imported” like they are dug out of the ground or something. How do these STEM OPT people find jobs? Guess what. They interview like everyone else does. 1: Every big tech interview I have been in the visa status is not even a question in the interview process. There is just a simple gate that “can you legal…

I think that nuance is fairly unwarranted when you observe the American system through the lens the laws ask you to view it through.

The American H1B system isn't about importing foreign workers that do a good job, it's about importing foreign workers that do a job no American could do. The system demands you look for some American do do the job first, and only if you fail to find one can you import one from overseas.

In that view, all the talk about GPA fall flat, because it doesn't matter if the foreign worker is better than an American worker, you are supposed to pick the American worker anyway.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#32

Post by delusional »

rayiner wrote: post #3

I’ve been hearing about this for decades. It keeps happening because republicans need their cheap labor and democrats need foreign voters. The people in power have tremendous political incentives to keep the pipeline flowing.

> democrats need foreign voters

Is there any proof for this statement? Republicans want cheap labor, they'll tell you that themselves, but I don't believe the Democrats would ever say that they believe in labor immigration to "get more voters".

That just sounds like a ludicrous conspiracy.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#33

Post by lazide »

delusional wrote: post #31
ylow wrote: post #18

This is using statistics to tell a preconceived story. Underlying this a notion that foreign workers are simply “imported” like they are dug out of the ground or something. How do these STEM OPT people find jobs? Guess what. They interview like everyone else does. 1: Every big tech interview I have been in the visa status is not even a question in the interview process. There is just a simple gate that “can you legal…

I think that nuance is fairly unwarranted when you observe the American system through the lens the laws ask you to view it through. The American H1B system isn't about importing foreign workers that do a good job, it's about importing foreign workers that do a job no American could do. The system demands you look for some American do do the job first, and only if you fail to find one can you import one from overseas…

Bwaha. I have never met an H1B in tech that was doing a job that an American could not do.

The ‘mandatory interviews for Americans’ are just transparent scams.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#34

Post by corimaith »

azinman2 wrote: post #15

“eliminate the STEM OPT extension” I won’t get into h1b which gets plenty of air time, but this is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone wanting to eliminate OPT. This is beyond idiotic. Foreigners come and get educated in the US; if we didn’t have OPT they’d have to go back to their home country and contribute there. Instead with OPT we give them a chance to integrate into American companies, making the US more comp…

More like they come to America because there aren't enough opportunities or good enough facilities back at home, get years of experience and knowledge, then go back home and start a billion dollar business that starts competing with said American companies they were just working for.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#35

Post by garden_hermit »

jppope wrote: post #20

I applaud the courage to call out this as a problem. With that said I believe that there is a lot more nuance on this issue than the article is willing to provide, or more importantly research needed to be done to be rigorous on this topic. There definitely is some truth here about the H1B1 program in the job market. There are some companies who are absolutely shameless abusers too. I think that all of us working in…

Generally speaking, foreign students subsidize public universities by paying full sticker price for tuition, whereas US students are either in state (paying less) or often receive scholarships and support.

Foreign students are not stealing “slots” from Americans. If anything, their tuition dollars make more slots available.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#36

Post by v5v3 »

garden_hermit wrote: post #35
jppope wrote: post #20

I applaud the courage to call out this as a problem. With that said I believe that there is a lot more nuance on this issue than the article is willing to provide, or more importantly research needed to be done to be rigorous on this topic. There definitely is some truth here about the H1B1 program in the job market. There are some companies who are absolutely shameless abusers too. I think that all of us working in…

Generally speaking, foreign students subsidize public universities by paying full sticker price for tuition, whereas US students are either in state (paying less) or often receive scholarships and support. Foreign students are not stealing “slots” from Americans. If anything, their tuition dollars make more slots available.

In some countries foreign students are charged a higher price for a course than domestic students.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#37

Post by MangoToupe »

nineplay wrote: post #21

"How the American engineering degree, sold as a solid ticket to the American dream, has become less solid for recent graduates trying to find that first job." As opposed to what? All the other recent graduates with non-engineering degrees who are drowning in job offers? It's tough out here for everyone. This kind of hyperbole doesn't help. "How the American engineering degree, sold as a solid ticket to the American d…

> It wasn't "sold" as though there were some cigarette smoking ad men behind it.

You must be joking, although I can't interpret the second half of the sentence. University is absolutely sold as a product giving you a chance at employment in the US, even if the "education" is completely unrelated to the work.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#38

Post by PeterStuer »

"We need to stop pretending that flooding the labor market with foreign workers is somehow beneficial to American students."

I do not think anyone is making that point. Clearly a gated and scarce employee pool is always in the advantage of the employee.

You can agree or not, but the point is expanded availability of highly skilled labor from CS Graduates benefits the US companies hiring them, not just by removing some scarcity in the supply, but also having an expanded talent pool increases quality available.

From a geo political perspective, would you rather have these people working to build up US industry, or have them starting and staffing competition in their home countries? "Brain drain" fueled by unlimited reserve currency dollars is very real.

Lastly, those non-US graduates pay a very hefty sum for the 'privilege' of attending school in the US. Having worked with academics from around the globe, including US, I can state with some certainty the US degree courses are not qualitatively very different from what is available elsewhere at a fraction of the cost (US education costs are insane!). But they do carry the implicit promise of an easyer way to higher paying US jobs.

So all in all, everyone in the US benefits from the system, except the lower 66th percentile of native US CS graduates.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#39

Post by newswasboring »

> That's equal to 82% of our graduating class who are guaranteed jobs even before any Americans walk across the stage for their diploma.

This is such a weird phrasing. These people are not "guaranteed" jobs. They get a job and then apply for a visa which is granted because they have offer letters. In fact the whole article reads like American government is somehow giving these people jobs rather than allowing them to work on jobs they have already gotten.

The most uncharitable reading of this is usual racist dog whistle.

Re: Data on How America Sold Out Its Computer Science Graduates

#40

Post by corimaith »

garden_hermit wrote: post #35
jppope wrote: post #20

I applaud the courage to call out this as a problem. With that said I believe that there is a lot more nuance on this issue than the article is willing to provide, or more importantly research needed to be done to be rigorous on this topic. There definitely is some truth here about the H1B1 program in the job market. There are some companies who are absolutely shameless abusers too. I think that all of us working in…

Generally speaking, foreign students subsidize public universities by paying full sticker price for tuition, whereas US students are either in state (paying less) or often receive scholarships and support. Foreign students are not stealing “slots” from Americans. If anything, their tuition dollars make more slots available.

Assuming funding correlates to more slots, which is not really true. The number of important professors to take mentorship from, the number of research lab slots are certainly lagging the increased funding, if increasing at all.

The money might be going into nicer buildings or administrative costs, but it's also a white elephant once the foreign funding dries up as the domestic situation improves for many internationals. After which then these universities find themselves in major trouble.

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