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Buying a Home Is Probably Even Worse Than NYTimes/NerdWallet Calculators Imply

tinkerdeck.com

31–40 of 76 posts

Re: Buying a Home Is Probably Even Worse Than NYTimes/NerdWallet Calculators Imply

#31

I'd point out that the data for homes is averaged nationally. Historically, there have been Good Places and Bad Places to buy a home. Home price growth in in-demand coastal areas is very different than in rural areas. In the US, "Flyover states" I'm sure skew this number heavily. Part of this is captured by the Volatility Index mentioned > Individual houses are 4x the volatility of a housing index, close to the same…

The mortgage interest deduction is incredibly over rated. For most people the last few years of high standard deduction + salt cap mean few people really get much benefit from it. At lower tax brackets it's a pretty minor discount on your interest to begin with.

The much bigger tax thing this article doesn't consider is the $250k/$500k single/married capital gains exemption on sale of primary residence.

Re: Buying a Home Is Probably Even Worse Than NYTimes/NerdWallet Calculators Imply

#32
I've done the math on this many times, and it still puzzles me how anybody would choose to buy a house in the Bay Area today versus renting an equivalent one. When mortgages are over 2x rent, the calculation skews tremendously in favor of renting and investing the difference in an index fund. This considers all possible factors and even chooses favorable conditions for homeowners (high appreciation, low stock market returns, high rent increases y/y). The permanent costs of owning a home (property tax, insurance, HOA, maintenance) are typically around 40% of rent, but can be even higher for certain types of property.

My conclusion every time I've done this exercise is that you should only buy a house in the Bay if you have way more money than you know what to do with. The difference in opportunity cost is absolutely massive, on the order of half a million today-dollars or more for a 3-bedroom SFH. That's a huge price to pay for the "privileges" of homeownership.

Re: Buying a Home Is Probably Even Worse Than NYTimes/NerdWallet Calculators Imply

#33

I'd point out that the data for homes is averaged nationally. Historically, there have been Good Places and Bad Places to buy a home. Home price growth in in-demand coastal areas is very different than in rural areas. In the US, "Flyover states" I'm sure skew this number heavily. Part of this is captured by the Volatility Index mentioned > Individual houses are 4x the volatility of a housing index, close to the same…

> If you pick a good location, buying a home is a fantastic purchase. It ties up that investment money in an asset that you can actually USE.

Also: It's a leveraged investment for most people (mortgage). If you put in 20% and your house tripled in value over the last ten years (which is what happened in SF & Seattle afaict), you make an annualized return of 27% (for a whopping 1070% total, i.e. more than 10x), after accounting for your payments (with realtor fees the number is slightly less but not meaningfully). Meanwhile as a renter your rent would likely have at least doubled over the same period, doubling the size of the nonrecoupable leak in your financial hull.

That's 1070% as opposed to 224%, i.e. 10x vs. 2x in the S&P. This is the reality of what has happened over the past 10 years, by the way, I am not using hypotheticals. Do note that home values tripling in price over the last decade is not common, even among these expensive cities, you have to be looking at specific types of housing in "luxury" neighborhoods.

TL;DR: Location matters. A LOT.

Re: Buying a Home Is Probably Even Worse Than NYTimes/NerdWallet Calculators Imply

#34

I'd point out that the data for homes is averaged nationally. Historically, there have been Good Places and Bad Places to buy a home. Home price growth in in-demand coastal areas is very different than in rural areas. In the US, "Flyover states" I'm sure skew this number heavily. Part of this is captured by the Volatility Index mentioned > Individual houses are 4x the volatility of a housing index, close to the same…

I'd point out that while an asset, yes, it is a liability. Not in the typical financial sense, either! I'm hesitant on buying because I have next to no certainty in my role. If I be a good little Business Man and make someone else filthy rich, have all the make-up beers, and show up on time: at-will employment is still a thing. I may still be forced out by circumstance. Equity might make the hit softer, I don't know.…

Well if you have to move to take a new job then you can always sell your home or rent it out. You'll take a hit on transaction costs or property management fees but you're unlikely to lose all of your equity.

Re: Buying a Home Is Probably Even Worse Than NYTimes/NerdWallet Calculators Imply

#35
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And mortgage costs are somehow free? :)

The are not free, they are paid by the tenant.

I don't think this is always true.

1. Many small landlords are not very financially sophisticated and won't factor in all costs when setting rent prices. For example, maintenance costs are often treated as one-time events ("the water heater broke") and not something to build into the cost of owning the home. I have relatives like this, and they generally view the appreciation on the property as their profit.

2. It's not uncommon for "landlords" to be renting out part of the house they're still living in. In these cases the rent can be somewhat arbitrarily related to the cost of the mortgage.

3. More sophisticated landlords often still have to compete with rents set by (1) and (2). At least in some markets.

Re: Buying a Home Is Probably Even Worse Than NYTimes/NerdWallet Calculators Imply

#36

I'd point out that the data for homes is averaged nationally. Historically, there have been Good Places and Bad Places to buy a home. Home price growth in in-demand coastal areas is very different than in rural areas. In the US, "Flyover states" I'm sure skew this number heavily. Part of this is captured by the Volatility Index mentioned > Individual houses are 4x the volatility of a housing index, close to the same…

"You'll never get forced out because your landlord wants to sell." Where I live, the highest source of inflation for me has been property taxes. It's almost as if my landlord wants me to sell.

I had the double whammy of property taxes AND insurance increases on my last house. Budget was a bit tight, but that almost sent me over the edge. I learned my lesson on my next house purchase, and made sure there was a ton of leg room in the budget, along with things I could very quickly drop from the budget if needed.

Re: Buying a Home Is Probably Even Worse Than NYTimes/NerdWallet Calculators Imply

#37
> crucially selling the appreciated home after XX years

Selling depends on demographics, the economy, and immigration. I'm in New Zealand where a lot of workers emigrate, and NZ patches that issue up with immigration. I read about €1 houses in Italy and ¥1 houses in Japan and then watch "South Korea is over" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufmu1WD2TSk

Modelling risks is the hardest part of any investment calculation.

Edit: the future value matters, and we get highly misled by looking at our experiences of historical results (especially don't expect to get the same results as your parent's generation).

Personally, thinking of your house purely as an investment is undesirable. You want to live there joyfully and not have to worry about pleasing the next investors.

The non financial upsides and downsides of your own home are more important than the investment. There are significant upsides and massive downsides: they are hard to balance.

I've rented a lot so I know that too has its advantages and disadvantages.

There are large financial upsides and downsides of your own home too. Geared lending is fantastic and dangerous, domicile taxation issues, regulations, yearly government fees that can screw your retirement. You don't really own your home, you have a license that you can sell. A home is really just a glorified longterm tenancy with two bigger landlords (the bank and your government).

Re: Buying a Home Is Probably Even Worse Than NYTimes/NerdWallet Calculators Imply

#38
post #37

> crucially selling the appreciated home after XX years Selling depends on demographics, the economy, and immigration. I'm in New Zealand where a lot of workers emigrate, and NZ patches that issue up with immigration. I read about €1 houses in Italy and ¥1 houses in Japan and then watch "South Korea is over" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufmu1WD2TSk Modelling risks is the hardest part of any investment calculation. E…

In general unless you're married and likely to have kids you certainly shouldn't buy a home and probably should try to just live with your parents.

Re: Buying a Home Is Probably Even Worse Than NYTimes/NerdWallet Calculators Imply

#39

I'd point out that the data for homes is averaged nationally. Historically, there have been Good Places and Bad Places to buy a home. Home price growth in in-demand coastal areas is very different than in rural areas. In the US, "Flyover states" I'm sure skew this number heavily. Part of this is captured by the Volatility Index mentioned > Individual houses are 4x the volatility of a housing index, close to the same…

"You'll never get forced out because your landlord wants to sell." Where I live, the highest source of inflation for me has been property taxes. It's almost as if my landlord wants me to sell.

Hot take: that’s actually desirable.

Sell and let someone who can make better use of it (i.e. more readily stomach the property tax) take possession.

Calcified landed gentry just sitting on dirt that appreciates due to the efforts and investments of everyone around them is Bad, Actually.

Re: Buying a Home Is Probably Even Worse Than NYTimes/NerdWallet Calculators Imply

#40

Okay, somebody help me out here. Maybe I'm missing something, but the basic equation is that you as tenant are paying the landlords costs plus their profit. How can renting ever be cheaper than buying?

Rents go up but the landlords costs stay static. A lot of small landlords start out at something close to break even from a cash flow perspective. At this point the landlords “profit” is the appreciation.

That said the cash flow gets better over time as rents increase.

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