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Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

iamcharliegraham.substack.com

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Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#31

Post by spacemadness »

stalfosknight wrote: post #16
zihotki wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We, at a large Dutch bank, also do have 20+ interns but 0 positions for them in IT department. Leadership is projecting that if you do well in internship then you'll be hired. But no interns were hired in last 2 years...

That is a great example of the kind of bullshit I'm talking about. How exactly are people supposed to reach a senior level if they aren't allowed to be junior developers first?

People have been asking the executive class this for a long while now: why don’t you care about training? Their response has ever been silence or threats or that’s what school is for. Do it on your own time, after the 50+ hours we demand from you. Some places get it and had a proper pipeline to train. A vast majority do not. And now they give us this. Great bunch of folks.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#32

Post by stalfosknight »

akomtu wrote: post #25
coolThingsFirst wrote: post #13

A large chunk of junior roles have vanished. Tech is neither a lucrative nor an interesting career anymore. Prompting until you get a somewhat working solution is boring af. I dont want to tell an LLM what to code i want to do it myself. In every bullet point he has the AI word in it.

Pulling the lever of LLM until you see a winning combination is what programming will become. Only the minority will remember the engineering skills.

That is incredibly depressing.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#33

Post by wobblyasp »

RyanOD wrote: post #18

I don't understand how anyone can get to the level where they "understand programming basics, architecture, and what good code looks like" without years of grinding code, collaborating, research, mistakes, refactoring, etc. To me, the idea that a Junior Developer would understand CS at that level or get there without writing code every day for a very long time seems highly unlikely. What am I not understanding?

I think the only thing that's going to change is expectation around deliverables.

I don't need an L4 to crack out some dirty code now, I'll let an agent do it so the L4 can level their skills up grinding harder problems.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#34

Post by cadamsdotcom »

The role of a junior will shift senior, thanks to AI leverage.

The expected knowledge of a junior will shift senior, thanks to AI broadening what one person can do.

The amount one junior can accomplish will increase thanks to AI.

These things have been trends for decades. AI just keeps them going.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#35

Post by [deleted] »

RyanOD wrote: post #18

I don't understand how anyone can get to the level where they "understand programming basics, architecture, and what good code looks like" without years of grinding code, collaborating, research, mistakes, refactoring, etc. To me, the idea that a Junior Developer would understand CS at that level or get there without writing code every day for a very long time seems highly unlikely. What am I not understanding?

[deleted]

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#36

Post by tstrimple »

sandspar wrote: post #30
tstrimple wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But it goes both ways. Online and in person have the same calculations for value, but lacking physical tells you learn to rely on those calculations more. As a result you’ll likely see a lot stronger players online (better at knowing and playing the odds) than an in-person game. This doesn’t even touch on the number of “cheaters” who use assistance online for calculations and bet placement. Another analogy that…

One striking thing about Gen Alpha and young Zoomers is how RAPIDLY they learn. Being young is like being on learning-focused anabolic steroid #1 + online programs and AI are like learning-focused anabolic steroid #2. It's really impressive. Take any "time to learn" estimate you have, like "2 years to become good at chess", and today's young people can slice it by 10x.

I agree with that, but one of the core lessons I've learned over my career in technology is that iteration rates are critical for learning. The shorter you can get the feedback loop, the faster you'll learn and advance. Companies that release software once a year or every other year are objectively terrible at it versus companies who release weekly or even daily. Bullet chess and online poker drastically shorten the feedback loop for those games compared to the "traditional" method of playing.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#37

Post by alistairSH »

stalfosknight wrote: post #10
alistairSH wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a floor full of interns right now. Our India and Mexico offices do as well. Some of them will probably be offered full-time roles. I hired a junior engineering a few years ago. And have done every few years for about a decade. I work at a mid-size, PE-owned company that's been around for 50+ years, that operates in the enterprise SaaS space. Junior roles aren't going anywhere. But, the expectations of those j…

Unpaid 20-something interns fresh out of college are not quite the same thing as what I am referring to when I say junior software developer.

We pay our interns, as required by local law.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#38

Post by sublinear »

stalfosknight wrote: post #17
grahac wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally fair. Sorry you had to go through that. Yeah the joke is companies want to hire someone who is already an expert in that role who is curious and a fast learner, without realizing that if someone is already an expert who is curious and a fast learner, they probably want a different role to grow into.

I don't mean to shit on your article. I think the general gist of it is correct; what it means to be a software developer is going to radically change for all levels, not just we mere mortals without the magical word "Senior" in our titles. Being fluent in prompting and supervising AI agents are going to be more of the day to day than cranking out lines of code. I'm just (I think justifiably) a little salty because n…

Yeah people still need to learn to code. Anyone frothing at the mouth needs to see a doctor.

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#39

Post by [deleted] »

grahac wrote: post #11
Avicebron wrote: post #7

r/LinkedInLunatics is leaking again. That said I'm glad this founder is able to micromanage his AI, they sound like a very problematic person to actually work with as an engineer, and if screaming into the void of AI means he is no longer sending vague poorly worded demands, I guess that alone might be worth it

LOL. AI is currently like a mid-level average to good engr who can write good code but ocassionally goes off the rails. Any engr on a team with those characteristics would be heavily vetted in reviews. Almost like a smart CS intern. If AI was amazing senior level engr, it would be a different story.

[deleted]

Re: Junior Roles Aren't Going Away

#40

Post by Izkata »

RyanOD wrote: post #18

I don't understand how anyone can get to the level where they "understand programming basics, architecture, and what good code looks like" without years of grinding code, collaborating, research, mistakes, refactoring, etc. To me, the idea that a Junior Developer would understand CS at that level or get there without writing code every day for a very long time seems highly unlikely. What am I not understanding?

Junior roles, not junior developers. They're useful for exactly the gruntwork you're describing, freeing up seniors for the higher-level or more difficult stuff while learning from it.

The theory is the roles would disappear because now the seniors can just send AI agents off to do the gruntwork instead of having to hire juniors or spend time on it themselves. It doesn't take into account if everyone does this then no one is training new seniors.

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