ApplePay vs. Alternative Payment Services • Hacker News Board

Re: ApplePay vs. Alternative Payment Services

#31

Post by lxgr » Sat, Jul 05, 2025, 9:57 PM UTC

akerl_ wrote: post #26

lxgr wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe they mean iOS in-app purchases when they say "ApplePay". Swap the two out mentally while reading, and it makes a bit more sense. To be honest, I'm very surprised by that mistake, given where it's published – I'd hope that people working on GNU Taler understand the basics of their competitive environment.

Yea, that makes more sense, but still seems incorrect? Just on my phone, several apps let me subscribe via the Apple AppStore but also by subscribing on their website with a credit card (like Discord, NYT, AllTrails, HBO, etc) And that’s not even considering that when I pay for an in-app purchase… I’m paying with my credit card. Apple takes their cut, but it’s still my Amex or visa or whatever that I’m using via my A…

> Just on my phone, several apps let me subscribe via the Apple AppStore but also by subscribing on their website with a credit card (like Discord, NYT, AllTrails, HBO, etc)

This is one of the few historical exemptions from Apple's otherwise ironclad IAP rules for so-called "reader apps".

Still, until very recently, these apps could not even mention that you can buy content/subscriptions on their website for cheaper (or, in some cases like the Kindle app, exclusively buy it there), let alone link to said website.

Now, the landscape is somewhat fragmented: In the EU, thanks to the DMA, external linking to external payment methods is allowed, but comes with a "scare sheet" and still grants Apple a cut of 20%(!). (This is about to change, I believe, but I'm not super up to date on it.)

In the US, developers can now apparently link to external payment sites (in SAfari) without Apple being allowed to charge a commission at all. This is a very recent development, and I haven't seen it in action myself.

Re: ApplePay vs. Alternative Payment Services

#32

Post by marc_taler » Sun, Jul 06, 2025, 7:22 AM UTC

I am the author of the article. The EU wanted to increase competition by allowing Alternative Payments, thus Apple had to change its rules. I shortened the term "App Store In‑App Purchase system" for "purchase of digital goods or services" for "developers with apps in the European Union" (==> doesn't apply to the rest of the world, and it doesn't apply when you sell physical goods) to `ApplePay`, because nobody except developers has ever heard of the long term.

If Apple's new rules would be accepted by the EU, the result is that the EU consumer either can (continue to) use the payment system linked to their Apple account to pay for e.g. some outfit in a game like they did the last 15 years, or they can't anymore because the developer chose a 3rd party payment system (e.g. Taler) and is no longer allowed to offer that.

If you think the use of "ApplePay" is confusing, please suggest another short term we should use in the article instead. What about "Apple payments"?

(Demanding all shops in the mall use only 1 payment card (e.g. Costco) is illegal in the EU - except if you don't pay individually in the shops but only once when you leave the mall, since then you are (legally) paying a single merchant (Costco) who of course can decide which cards to accept. But for my airport analogy the customer is paying in the shop/app and not in the mall/AppStore.)

Re: ApplePay vs. Alternative Payment Services

#33

Post by marc_taler » Sun, Jul 06, 2025, 8:00 AM UTC

samcat116 wrote: post #10

> Would the EU allow Visa or Mastercard to impose such exclusion rules on merchants who want to accept their credit cards? Definitely not. I mean Costco has been doing this for many years and people seem ok with it? It's somewhat annoying but I get enough value out of Costco that myself and I think many are happy with the tradeoff.

I've never been in a Costco - is that a mall where you pay in each shop individually, or a single store where you pay the total at the exit? In the latter case, the customer is legally only buying from one merchant, who can of course decide which payment system(s) to accept. But in the former case, in the EU it would be illegal for the mall operator to dictate which payment methods shops may offer their customers.

Re: ApplePay vs. Alternative Payment Services

#34

Post by ckcheng » Sun, Jul 06, 2025, 3:40 PM UTC

lxgr wrote: post #30

ckcheng wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m trying to understand the structure, is this about right? Costco Warehouse = Apple App Store. Dyson (vacuum vendor) = WidgetApp (digital goods vendor). Dyson sold in the Costco Warehouse must use Costco as the merchant. WidgetApp sold in the Apple App Store must use iOS IAP merchant of record solution (??). Costco Warehouse forces use of Visa (or Mastercard - depends on country). Apple iOS IAP does NOT require App…

Kind of, but the analogy does break down since there isn't only one store that Dyson can sell you vacuums at. There is some level of stickiness since Costco requires an upfront membership, but it's really not as pervasive. Imagine people living in houses or apartments with a proprietary kind of power outlet, and the patent owner/real estate developer is willing to grant you, an appliance manufacturer, a license for p…

I feel the analogy actually holds up well since brands often create retailer exclusive versions of their products specifically for Costco or Walmart, etc.

Like you can buy Henckels knives anywhere, but you can only buy Henckels item 1374080 at Costco [1] - that Costco item number is printed right on the box.

I sympathize with the rent-seeking walled garden argument against Apple. But would it be ok for Apple to require iOS IAP if their cut was not 30% but was instead 25% (like Walmart’s gross margin), or was instead 14% (like Costco’s)? c.f. Apple’s App Store Small Business Program rate is 15%.

Is the percent cut that’s the problem regardless of structure, or is it the structure that’s bad?

[1] https://www.costco.com/henckels-modernist-20-piece-self-shar...