Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore • Hacker News Board

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#31

Post by fransje26 » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 10:12 AM UTC

bjackman wrote: post #21

Roark66 wrote: post #15

And how could they've done this without language? I've heard this statement that neanderthals were "outcompeted" because homo sapiens had language and they did not (something about the way their anatomy didn't allow for making complex sounds). I call BS on that now. You can't do this kind of stuff without ability to communicate your intentions, future plans, rewards for other people and so on. Next we'll discover the…

Yeah I think it's pretty inconceivable at this point that Sapiens were the first ones to have language. I think it's still reasonable to argue that Neandertals lacked certain capacities that we have, based on differences in the evidence from tools and art that's attributed to them vs Sapiens. But IMO this would clearly have been a difference of degree, not at atomic shift. They were obviously _people_.

At the moment, your comment is being heavily down-voted for what seems to be a totally reasonable point of view.

In recent years we've went from "completely primitive and segregated Neanderthals", to "oh, we share quite a bit of DNA with the Neanderthals", and "the Neanderthals engaged in complex symbolic thought", as well as "the Neanderthals were pretty advanced artists".

The current article is a further demonstration of that trend.

So it's fair to say that our original assumptions of the Neanderthals were profoundly flawed, and, as we go, we discover that they were different to us by a difference of degree -as you propose-, as opposed to the notion of being radically and binarily different.

In that vein, it is not a stretch to imagine that we were perhaps also completely wrong in our assumptions of their ability to communicate by sound, i.e. mastering languages.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#32

Post by ethan_smith » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 10:18 AM UTC

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

Stone boiling (dropping heated rocks into water-filled containers) was also a widespread pre-pottery technique that Neanderthals likely employed alongside the hide/bark methods you mentioned.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#33

Post by meindnoch » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 10:18 AM UTC

[flagged]

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#34

Post by sumitkumar » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 10:32 AM UTC

clarionbell wrote: post #29

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

From the original paper: > experiments recently demonstrated that organic perishable containers, e.g., made out of deer skin or birch bark, placed directly on a fire, are capable of heating water sufficiently to process food, with the advantages of wet-cooking beginning at lower, sub-boiling temperatures than thus far acknowledged

Even thin single use plastic works. The first time I saw it it was surreal.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#35

Post by p00dles » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 10:33 AM UTC

Youden wrote: post #22

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

In high school science class we boiled water using standard printer paper: fold a sheet into a box, put it on a stand over a bunsen burner, fill it with water, turn up the bunsen burner. Not only does it not burn but it retains more of its structural integrity.

that is so cool - I mean the fact that this example stuck with you so long is a single of good teaching to me

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#36

Post by jl6 » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 10:45 AM UTC

Roark66 wrote: post #15

And how could they've done this without language? I've heard this statement that neanderthals were "outcompeted" because homo sapiens had language and they did not (something about the way their anatomy didn't allow for making complex sounds). I call BS on that now. You can't do this kind of stuff without ability to communicate your intentions, future plans, rewards for other people and so on. Next we'll discover the…

It seems weird to think there needs to be a major biological distinction to explain the idea of being outcompeted. Modern humans outcompete each other at various things all the time, right now (peacefully and non-peacefully) and it’s not because of any differences as drastic as having language vs not having language.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#37

Post by stinos » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 10:45 AM UTC

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

Heh, wanted to make a comment saying this isn't 'super' recent knowlegde because I vividly remember Jean M. Auel using it in her first novels written in the 80's, and basically all the technical stuff she wrote was researched, ony to find out [1] indeed opens with a quote from said novels.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#38

Post by b112 » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 10:51 AM UTC

cdrini wrote: post #20

Roark66 wrote: post #15

And how could they've done this without language? I've heard this statement that neanderthals were "outcompeted" because homo sapiens had language and they did not (something about the way their anatomy didn't allow for making complex sounds). I call BS on that now. You can't do this kind of stuff without ability to communicate your intentions, future plans, rewards for other people and so on. Next we'll discover the…

Both of those things can be true. Just because they didn't have language, doesn't mean they couldn't communicate, it just means they could likely only communicate primarily by showing instead of telling. And it's also clear why being able to communicate with language would indeed offer quite the competitive edge over that system.

During a period of high trust, I've watched crows training their young via showing.

While crows have "crafty" intelligence, neanderthals would be more apt at this.

But really, the logical first language would be gesture, an extension of already existing body language. And such language is employed by humans when hunting, at war, whenever quiet is preferred.

Even a gesture language of a few dozen concepts is almost automatic, pointing, waving, directional motions, hushing motions, pointing at your head, clapping, etc.

This being extended as full language in beings incapable of complex sound, seems viable.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#39

Post by contrarian1234 » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 11:03 AM UTC

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

I read that the native american peoples that lives in the San Francisco area never invented pottery. They boiled water in tightly woven baskets.

Sure you have a 100C heatsink within millimeters, but I still find it surprising that the outside layer of the basket wouldn't burn away slowly.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#40

Post by agumonkey » Mon, Jul 07, 2025, 11:07 AM UTC

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

So the heat transfer through the material to the water "fast" enough so that it doesn't char at all ? Makes sense but still surprising.