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Thomas Aquinas – The world is divine

ralphammer.com

31–40 of 43 posts

Re: Thomas Aquinas – The world is divine

#31
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't recommend using this article as a serious source of knowledge about Aquinas. Some of the wording is a little iffy as well. For beginners, I would recommend "Aquinas: A Beginner's Guide" [0]. After that, if you want to dig deeper into Scholastic metaphysics in general, consider [1]. There are also books devoted to Aquinas's metaphysics exclusively, such as [2] and [3]. > The claim about the validity of Aquinas…

I encourage you to not be flippant about dismissing people who think that your metaphysical arguments don't hold water. Thomas Aquinas' actual first cause argument is trivially refuted by the possibility of infinite regress. Your musings about the nature of a thing and its telos, is an attempt to impose a human conceit about how we understand reality, on reality itself. The "human nature" that you're talking about "f…

If you're going to criticize a position, the least you can do is understand the basics of what you're attacking. Otherwise, why waste your time jousting with straw men?

> Thomas Aquinas' actual first cause argument is trivially refuted by the possibility of infinite regress.

Except it doesn't. That you claim it does means you are familiar with some caricature of the argument (Dawkins & co. are famous for these, but they are not alone). You even come across such claims in philosophy departments where actual knowledge of Aquinas is conspicuously absent and consequently where misconceptions easily flourish. This is basic stuff about Aquinas, not some rarefied debate about his finer points.

> Your musings about the nature of a thing and its telos, is an attempt to impose a human conceit about how we understand reality

First of all, I was correcting a misunderstanding of Aquinas, not defending telos. However, it is clear you are unfamiliar with the subject yourself. First, what you think of telos appears to be something like conscious human purpose (which is a species of telos, but not telos in the general sense). In fact, you need telos to explain the very regularity of efficient causality that empirical science presupposes. Why is it that striking a match predictably results in fire? Why doesn't it result in an elephant or a million dollars or something else each time, or nothing at all? It consistently results in fire because the match is causally ordered toward the effect of fire that is actualized by striking. The cause-effect relation is itself teleological. Furthermore, what characterizes minds is intentionality, and intentionality is teleological. Without telos, you have no intentionality, and without intentionality, you have no rationality.

Second, given that Aquinas is an Aristotelian when it comes to the problem of universals, the notion of Platonic ideals is simply nonsensical and irrelevant in this context. Human nature is instantiated by human beings, and it is actualized as we develop and grow, to a significant degree by our choices and actions.

> Any musings about "the nature of God" establishes nothing more than a concept in someone's mind. ...etc, etc...

This just sounds like a convoluted way of saying you think God is a fiction. Okay, sure, you think God is a fiction. So what?

(FWIW, according to Aquinas and others — and you see this in Exodus 3:14 as well — God cannot be conceptualized strictly speaking, except by means of analogical devices, as God, according to Aquinas and others, "is" the act of existence. Concepts are abstracted essences; "to be a sunflower" or "to be an alligator" signify the concepts "sunflower" and "alligator", but "to be" does not. There is no concept for "to be", strictly speaking.)

> These arguments are all sophistry.

I would encourage that you attain at least basic proficiency in the subject matter before drawing such hasty conclusions, but you don't seem to respond well to encouragement, so I'll leave it at that.

Re: Thomas Aquinas – The world is divine

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't recommend using this article as a serious source of knowledge about Aquinas. Some of the wording is a little iffy as well. For beginners, I would recommend "Aquinas: A Beginner's Guide" [0]. After that, if you want to dig deeper into Scholastic metaphysics in general, consider [1]. There are also books devoted to Aquinas's metaphysics exclusively, such as [2] and [3]. > The claim about the validity of Aquinas…

> Aquinas does not begin with the existence of God. Excuse my poor knowledge and understanding of all this stuff - but he's absolutely depending on Aristotle, taking existence of telos as a foundation, doesn't he? And from this, inventing a God isn't a far stretch - if something axiomatically has an intrinsic purpose, it's probably not too hard to state that there should be something with agency to define it all, or…

Aristotle takes telos to be one of the four causes, yes, and Aquinas agrees with him here. However, telos is a more general concept than what you might call conscious human purpose. The cause-effect relationship is itself teleological. You could not explain why an effect results from a cause without telos. This isn't axiomatic, though, which makes it sound like it is assumed without reason.

And yes, you can indeed argue for the existence of God from telos, but this isn't question begging. The teleological argument Aquinas is famous for (his Fifth Way) is not the Paley-style argument some people think it is. Feser's article "Between Aristotle and William Paley: Aquinas’s Fifth Way" discusses this at some length, beyond what his book "Aquinas" discusses (you can find it in this book [2] along with other material worth reading).

> This said, are any of those books a good read for someone who doesn't think there's any purpose, reason or goal to all of this?

I understand that you lean this way, but perhaps a better stance is to be fair and open minded toward the subject. Apart from the books I already listed (which are indeed good), I might even suggest beginning with this popular polemical tract [0] (polemical because it responds to the snark and ignorant condescension of people like Dawkins), and later, if you are interested in an introduction that focuses specifically on the existence of God from five different philosophical positions, you might find [1] interesting.

[0] https://a.co/d/7tSlbxk

[1] https://a.co/d/arJWT56

[2] https://a.co/d/jaG30ac

Re: Thomas Aquinas – The world is divine

#33

> A large part of our civilisation rests on the shoulders of one medieval monk: Thomas Aquinas. The article starts with that but then provides no evidence for that claim as far as I can see. How does our civilization in large part rest on his ideas? What about other civilizations? The claim about the validity of Aquinas' ideas seem to only make sense if we accept his initial assumption which is the existence of God.…

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Re: Thomas Aquinas – The world is divine

#34

> A large part of our civilisation rests on the shoulders of one medieval monk: Thomas Aquinas. The article starts with that but then provides no evidence for that claim as far as I can see. How does our civilization in large part rest on his ideas? What about other civilizations? The claim about the validity of Aquinas' ideas seem to only make sense if we accept his initial assumption which is the existence of God.…

We tend to be suckers for the 'big men' way of writing history. As we are hard wired to appreciate causality:

X triggers y which revolutionized how we do z and changed the world to our 'current understanding'.

In this case the writer is trying to push a theological, conservative narrative, and Aquinas fits perfectly! Wow!

Otoh one could argue that Aquinas biggest achievement is showing the natural world cannot be explained solely from the bible, thus necessitating less convoluted explanations (Occam's razor) this paving the way for science through falsification.

Re: Thomas Aquinas – The world is divine

#35
post #16

This is the type of religious propaganda that would appear in a worksheet for children in a Catholic school. It doesn't belong here. There are no arguments here, just the presupposition of some deity.

The arguments are simplified, but they are there. There's a lot to it beyond "God exists because I say so", especially if you dig deeper. I think they are valuable even if you dont believe in the existince of a Christian God.

Re: Thomas Aquinas – The world is divine

#36
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encourage you to not be flippant about dismissing people who think that your metaphysical arguments don't hold water. Thomas Aquinas' actual first cause argument is trivially refuted by the possibility of infinite regress. Your musings about the nature of a thing and its telos, is an attempt to impose a human conceit about how we understand reality, on reality itself. The "human nature" that you're talking about "f…

If you're going to criticize a position, the least you can do is understand the basics of what you're attacking. Otherwise, why waste your time jousting with straw men? > Thomas Aquinas' actual first cause argument is trivially refuted by the possibility of infinite regress. Except it doesn't. That you claim it does means you are familiar with some caricature of the argument (Dawkins & co. are famous for these, but t…

> I would encourage that you attain at least basic proficiency in the subject matter before drawing such hasty conclusions, but you don't seem to respond well to encouragement, so I'll leave it at that.

I respond just fine to encouragement. It is unwarranted intellectual arrogance that I react poorly to.

The world is full of too many arguments for any person to master. We therefore must find ways to evaluate arguments from first principles, to help us decide which arguments are worth further investigation.

Here is such a principle. Any argument about physical reality which is not rooted in physical evidence can only result in a correct conclusion by coincidence. And any model of physical reality, no matter how accurate in experience, may prove to be wrong upon the discovery of more physical evidence.

As an example, Kant argued that Euclidean geometry was a necessary property of space. This was widely accepted, and was in perfect agreement with experience. And yet his a priori conclusion about physical reality, was later found to be false.

Therefore, only arguments based on physical evidence should be considered for the question of how the universe was created. And there must be room to question even them. Which means that conclusions from the philosophy that you accept, should only be accepted by others if better arguments are presented which come from evidence. And, even then, our acceptance should come with an asterisk.

That's one principle. Here is a second.

Any argument that results in a false conclusion, must either start with a false premise, or include a mistake. We can conclude this entirely without examining the argument.

You have presented an argument that there can be no rationality without intentionality. However even a basic acquaintance with the philosophy of mathematics demonstrates a system which contains rationality without any form of intentionality. Therefore your conclusion about rationality is wrong. And therefore your conceptualization of a teleos, and insistence on its necessity, is likewise wrong.

It may be interesting. It may be entertaining. But it is clearly a poor intellectual foundation from which to try to understand rationality.

By all means, you're free to entertain yourself by continuing to try to understand the world through made-up ideas about how things must be. Just don't expect others to take your claims seriously.

Re: Thomas Aquinas – The world is divine

#37

> A large part of our civilisation rests on the shoulders of one medieval monk: Thomas Aquinas. The article starts with that but then provides no evidence for that claim as far as I can see. How does our civilization in large part rest on his ideas? What about other civilizations? The claim about the validity of Aquinas' ideas seem to only make sense if we accept his initial assumption which is the existence of God.…

I don't recommend using this article as a serious source of knowledge about Aquinas. Some of the wording is a little iffy as well. For beginners, I would recommend "Aquinas: A Beginner's Guide" [0]. After that, if you want to dig deeper into Scholastic metaphysics in general, consider [1]. There are also books devoted to Aquinas's metaphysics exclusively, such as [2] and [3]. > The claim about the validity of Aquinas…

> Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

> Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

> Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God.

> Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.

> Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.

So he argues that there is a first mover, a first efficient cause, an independent necessary being, a cause of all other beings, and an intelligent director but he just assumes that each of those things is the god he believes in who has a son named Jesus, etc...

Well, maybe his assumption is wrong and those things are actually aspects of Mother Nature, or an Invisible Pink Unicorn, or The Five Fairies. How could we possibly tell the difference?

Re: Thomas Aquinas – The world is divine

#38
post #16

This is the type of religious propaganda that would appear in a worksheet for children in a Catholic school. It doesn't belong here. There are no arguments here, just the presupposition of some deity.

This isn't "propaganda", it's attempting to give a casual look at Aquinas' philosophy (which, as the author points out, does not presuppose a deity). Moreover, if you read the rest of the site, you will see that this author tries to give this sort of casual look at many diverse philosophical ideas (not just religious philosophy or Western philosophy). You are having a knee jerk reaction to a strawman, not responding…

This is no knee jerk reaction my friend, the author is capitalizing "he" when referring to the Christian god.

Re: Thomas Aquinas – The world is divine

#39
post #26

> A large part of our civilisation rests on the shoulders of one medieval monk: Thomas Aquinas. The article starts with that but then provides no evidence for that claim as far as I can see. How does our civilization in large part rest on his ideas? What about other civilizations? The claim about the validity of Aquinas' ideas seem to only make sense if we accept his initial assumption which is the existence of God.…

> The article starts with that but then provides no evidence for that claim You people are sure allergic to anything religious. The author's main point isn't that so he or she didn't support it. I don't think it's true, though he is an important figure in philosophy and theology still. Should the author also first attempt to prove the existence of Aquinas? And that he was a monk? Before writing about him? Does he nee…

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Re: Thomas Aquinas – The world is divine

#40
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to criticize a position, the least you can do is understand the basics of what you're attacking. Otherwise, why waste your time jousting with straw men? > Thomas Aquinas' actual first cause argument is trivially refuted by the possibility of infinite regress. Except it doesn't. That you claim it does means you are familiar with some caricature of the argument (Dawkins & co. are famous for these, but t…

> I would encourage that you attain at least basic proficiency in the subject matter before drawing such hasty conclusions, but you don't seem to respond well to encouragement, so I'll leave it at that. I respond just fine to encouragement. It is unwarranted intellectual arrogance that I react poorly to. The world is full of too many arguments for any person to master. We therefore must find ways to evaluate argument…

Great statements. It seems clear to me that people who argue for the truth of religious statements do that not because they want other people to know the truth, but because they want to keep on believing what they already believe in. And they want other people to believe them so they can exert power on other people. If they are right then surely we must do what they say.

It is illustrative that people arguing for religious truths never bona fide accept the possibility that they might be wrong. They might say for argumentative reasons: "I don't assume God exists ..." but then they in effect continue with "But let me proove to you why it must be true that "God" exists". :-).

I put "God" in quotes above because it is not clear what people using that word in fact mean by it. Oh, God is "everything". Oh, God is "perfection". God is Love. God is Pure Goodness. What have you.

The problem with such arguments or "definitions" is that if God is Love, then Love must also be God. If God is everything then everything must also be God.

So they are arguing about properties and attributes of "God", but they are not defining clearly what it is they are arguing about.

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