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LaborBerlin: State-of-the-Art 16mm Projector

filmlabs.org

31–39 of 39 posts

Re: LaborBerlin: State-of-the-Art 16mm Projector

#31
post #24

Former 35mm projectionist here (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35887809 ). I also worked with 16mm projectors and cameras as a student. It's cool to see that people are still interested in this media, and trying to fix a number of problems. There are a couple things about this proposal that are admirable, such as switching to dimmable LEDs and open-source/3D printable parts. I also liked the bit about not t…

>16mm/35mm is already fading, with a finite population of prints that dwindles every year as film deteriorates or reels are lost/destroyed.

They are still publishing films in 35mm and at least in popular US cities the format has a following. For example in 2021, Last Night In Soho was printed in 35mm. To be fair the 35mm print was only exhibited in some select locations and only for special screenings. But then we also have 70mm IMAX that despite only has X number of screens left, still manages to attracts sold out screenings for weeks whenever a film (Like Oppenheimer) appears. I also spoke to the people running the Barrymore Film Center in Fort Lee, NJ (They screen 16mm, 35mm and 70mm and they promote Fort Lee as the birthplace of the American Motion Picture Industry). They told me that you can order up thousands of different 35mm films from studio's storage centers (I think there are only two left in the country) and the main issue is delivery costs make it usually not worth it to screen most films.

I am closer to middle age but I have met a lot of youngins who are die hard film people.

Re: LaborBerlin: State-of-the-Art 16mm Projector

#32
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's to be archived it's going to end up encoded as pixels. I think the question was more about the capture of fine detail. A scanner will digitize much more image detail than any capture of the projector output. Although, reading the article it seems an emphasis was placed on color accuracy. I'm not sure if a scanner is necessarily as good at that.

If you're archiving motion picture film, there are no pixels, only film stock. The archive process may include digitizing, but even then you still have to deal with the original film media, which is the primary task of a film archivist.

When you play it back, you don't get the same look of a physical medium rapidly moving through a mechanical machine. You just don't.

Re: LaborBerlin: State-of-the-Art 16mm Projector

#33
post #14

Curious: Why do they need to support all those different frame rates?

Silent films were inconsistent on frame rate, especially early on. The cameras were hand cranked and so the frame rate was determined by the operator. It wasn't unusual to speed up and slow down the frame rate within a scene to achieve a desired effect. The person cranking the projector, in the early days, had to make a similar judgment. As hand cranked projectors have way to electrically powered ones, handling abnormal speeds became difficult, which lead to standardization. Early silent films almost always run too fast when projected on modern projectors. As a result, variable speed has always been a desirable feature for projectors used for historic films. Film preservationists would often modify projectors to provide it.

It can similarly be very difficult to find aperture masks to fit the unusual aspect ratios of older films, so a projectionist might have to fabricate one. Fortunately that's pretty easy with a file.

Re: LaborBerlin: State-of-the-Art 16mm Projector

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they typically suck. It's a different story if you want to properly scan 8mm from edge to edge and get TIFFs (or similar) for each frame.

Oh, do they ever suck. I did some Super-8 transfers to a Digital8 camcorder in the early 2000's. I tried one of those Kodak-branded 8mm digitizers in my public library last year. The 20 y/o SD Digital8 transfers done with an optical transfer box look better.

Yeah. I was always pissed that none of the dedicated still-photo film scanners offered a movie-film adapter. I had a Nikon LS-2000 (which sucked, BTW) and it had a film-feed mechanism... but only for 35mm still film.

Then again, those scanners didn't have sufficient resolution for 8mm. I think the LS-2000 was something like 2700 DPI... which would only yield 800 or so pixels across. So it would have also needed an additional lens.

Re: LaborBerlin: State-of-the-Art 16mm Projector

#35

One thing seems odd: it takes an 800W LED to double the light output of a 250W halogen bulb. Normally LED is far more efficient than halogen so I wonder why the opposite is true for this project.

I agree, this seems really odd. The solution should not be a modern projector with 1kW electrical power converted into heat.

The Cob array of leds is the problematic choice, while on paper you get a lot of light, you don't get a point source.

If you look at the large theater projectors, I remember laser sources (but no speckle, is this pumped phosphor?) or expensive xenon bulbs. At least 10years ago...

I remember a solution (car headlights?) of decoupling the phosphor (for converting uv to while light) from the UV Led. So you have multiple diodes pumping a small piece of phosphor for a nice bright point source. Not sure how this can be replicated open source.

Another approach (studio led lights) wasomething with glass mixing rods? You insert the light of multiple leds into a glass rod, and a uniform beam emerges. But I guess this was more to improve CRI, rather than to increase brightness/point source.

Re: LaborBerlin: State-of-the-Art 16mm Projector

#36
post #14

Curious: Why do they need to support all those different frame rates?

Some films were recorded with a lower frame rate due to some reason. As for variable and standstill, I think this would only be needed when investigating a recording in detail. Not sure if they really need it. Perhaps they just want it to cover more use cases.

"due to some reason."

Money. A lot of silent movies were filmed around 16-18 to save on film costs. Also sometimes they'd crank it up or down for dramatic or comedic effect so a film could have a variable frame rate.

Then along came sound with the audio track printed on the side of the film and they had to bump up the basic frame rate to 24 (or 23.9something) which was the lowest they could go without it sounding bad.

Re: LaborBerlin: State-of-the-Art 16mm Projector

#37
post #14

Curious: Why do they need to support all those different frame rates?

Silent films were inconsistent on frame rate, especially early on. The cameras were hand cranked and so the frame rate was determined by the operator. It wasn't unusual to speed up and slow down the frame rate within a scene to achieve a desired effect. The person cranking the projector, in the early days, had to make a similar judgment. As hand cranked projectors have way to electrically powered ones, handling abnor…

> As hand cranked projectors have way

Did you mean "gave" way? Took me a few reads to remember that g is next to h.

(I've been struggling with a Das keyboard for a few years... Brings back the feeling of learning to drive stick.)

Re: LaborBerlin: State-of-the-Art 16mm Projector

#38
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not scan film in instead of.. projecting it on a wall and filming that to archive? It's a different experience: When viewing film, the picture flickers and shakes. Film grain is substantially different than pixels. As much as I enjoy modern digital formats, it's important to appreciate the goal of preserving viewing film.

If it's to be archived it's going to end up encoded as pixels. I think the question was more about the capture of fine detail. A scanner will digitize much more image detail than any capture of the projector output. Although, reading the article it seems an emphasis was placed on color accuracy. I'm not sure if a scanner is necessarily as good at that.

> If it's to be archived it's going to end up encoded as pixels.

You're missing the point. In this case, the point is literally preserving the experience of viewing actual film: IE, preserving the original viewing experience that the film was shown in.

It's kind of the same think as listening to a vinyl record from the 1960s, even though the digitally remastered 24/96khz flac is technically more accurate to what actually happened in the studio. IE, if I want to know how my parents enjoyed the Beatles, I pull out a vinyl record, even though the various digital remasters, including the recent 24/96 versions, are "more accurate" to what's on the master tapes.

Re: LaborBerlin: State-of-the-Art 16mm Projector

#39
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not scan film in instead of.. projecting it on a wall and filming that to archive? It's a different experience: When viewing film, the picture flickers and shakes. Film grain is substantially different than pixels. As much as I enjoy modern digital formats, it's important to appreciate the goal of preserving viewing film.

>the picture flickers and shakes This can be emulated with a post processing effect. >Film grain is substantially different than pixels. The grain can be recorded at a high enough resolution that the human eye will be unable to tell the difference when it's being projected.

I personally find virtual film effects distracting.

Personally, I've seen old silent films projected from original filmstock, in a theater that considers itself a museum. It's different enough from a scan that I wouldn't want someone to try to "emulate" film for me. Otherwise, I might as well just find the film on bluray or streaming and watch it at home, with all the cleanup and pretty soundtracks that come with home releases.

That being said: Very old film is flammable and can only be projected in flameproof projection rooms. (If you've ever seen a "safety film only" sign, this is why.) Due to the fire risk, scanning the film might be the only practical option.

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