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Why Claude's Comment Paper Is a Poor Rebuttal

victoramartinez.com

31–40 of 77 posts

Re: Why Claude's Comment Paper Is a Poor Rebuttal

#31
The author's main point is that output token constraints should not be the root cause for poor performance in reasoning tests, as in many cases the LLMs did not even come close to exceeding their token budgets before giving up.

While that may be true, do we understand how LLMs behave according to token budget constraints? This might impact much simpler tasks as well. If we give them a task to list the names of all cities in the world according to population, do they spit out a python script if we give them a 4k output token budget but a full list if we give them 100k?

Re: Why Claude's Comment Paper Is a Poor Rebuttal

#32
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may genuinely be the case that slower humans are not generally intelligent. But that sounds rather snobbish so it's not an opinion I'd like to express frequently. I think the complaint made by apple is quite logical though and you mischaracterise it here. The question asked in the Apple study was "if I give you the algorithm that solves a puzzle, can you solve that puzzle?" The answer for most humans should be yes…

I think a human will struggle to solve Hanoi using the recursive algorithm for even 6 disks, even given pen and paper. Does that change if you give them the algorithm description? No. Conversely, the LLMs already know the algorithm, so including it in the prompt makes no difference.

> I think a human will struggle to solve Hanoi using the recursive algorithm for even 6 disks, even given pen and paper.

Why? The whole point of the recursive algorithm is that it doesn't matter how many discs you're working with.

The ordinary children's toys that implement the puzzle are essentially always sold with more than 6 discs.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=towers+of+hanoi

Re: Why Claude's Comment Paper Is a Poor Rebuttal

#33
post #21

Apple's tune will completely change the second they get a leading LLM - Look at all the super important and useful things you can do with "Apple General Intelligence"!

No, it wont. This comment essentially says science doesnt matter for anyone, only whether or not they're leading in marketing.

Re: Why Claude's Comment Paper Is a Poor Rebuttal

#34
post #25

> I would consider this a death blow paper to the current push for using LLMs and LRMs as the basis for AGI. Anytime I see "Artificial General Intelligence," "AGI," "ASI," etc., I mentally replace it with "something no one has defined meaningfully." Or the long version: "something about which no conclusions can be drawn because the proposed definitions lack sufficient precision and completeness." Or the short version…

One vague definition I see tossed around a lot "something can replace almost any human knowledge/white collar worker". What does that mean in concrete terms? I'm not sure. Many of these models can already pass bar exams but how many can be lawyers? Probably none. What's missing?

> Probably none.

The qualification is unnecessary; we know the answer is "none". There's a steady stream of lawyers getting penalized for submitting LLM output to judges.

Re: Why Claude's Comment Paper Is a Poor Rebuttal

#35

> I would consider this a death blow paper to the current push for using LLMs and LRMs as the basis for AGI. Anytime I see "Artificial General Intelligence," "AGI," "ASI," etc., I mentally replace it with "something no one has defined meaningfully." Or the long version: "something about which no conclusions can be drawn because the proposed definitions lack sufficient precision and completeness." Or the short version…

I like Sundar Pichai's: "Artificial Jagged Intelligence" (AJI)

Re: Why Claude's Comment Paper Is a Poor Rebuttal

#36

> I would consider this a death blow paper to the current push for using LLMs and LRMs as the basis for AGI. Anytime I see "Artificial General Intelligence," "AGI," "ASI," etc., I mentally replace it with "something no one has defined meaningfully." Or the long version: "something about which no conclusions can be drawn because the proposed definitions lack sufficient precision and completeness." Or the short version…

I know it when I see it

The only definition by which porn, beauty, intelligence, aliveness, and creativity are all known

(seriously, forget this stuff: Consider how you come up with an algorithm for how creative or beautiful something is?)

A line that used to work (back when I was in a part of my life where lines were a thing) was "I can tell you're smart, which means that you can tell I'm smart, because like sees like." Usually got a smile out of 'em.

Re: Why Claude's Comment Paper Is a Poor Rebuttal

#37
post #6

Has anyone come up with a definition of AGI where humans are near-universally capable of GI? These articles seem to be slowly pushing the boundaries past the point where slower humans are disbarred from intelligence. Many years ago I bumped in to Towers of Hanoi in a computer game and failed to solve it algorithmicly, so I suppose I'm lucky I only work a knowledge job rather than an intelligence-based one.

People confuse performance and internal presentation. A simple calculator is vastly better as adding numbers than any human. An chess engine will rival any human grand master. No one would say that this got us closer to AGI. We could absolutely see LLMs that produce poetry that humans can not tell apart or even prefer to human made poetry. We could have LLMs that are perfectly able to convince humans that they have c…

The problem with your argument is the idea that there is this special thing called "consciousness" that humans have and AI "doesn't".

Philosophers, scientists, thinkers have been trying to define "consciousness" for 100+ years at this point and no one has managed to either a) define it, or b) find ways to test for it.

Saying we have "consciousness" and AI "doesn't" is like saying we have a soul, a ghost in the machine, and AI doesn't. Do we really have a ghost in the machine? Or are we just really a big deterministic machine that we just don't fully understand yet, rather like AI.

So before you assert that we are "conscious", you should first define what you mean by that term and how we test for it conclusively.

Re: Why Claude's Comment Paper Is a Poor Rebuttal

#38
post #6

Has anyone come up with a definition of AGI where humans are near-universally capable of GI? These articles seem to be slowly pushing the boundaries past the point where slower humans are disbarred from intelligence. Many years ago I bumped in to Towers of Hanoi in a computer game and failed to solve it algorithmicly, so I suppose I'm lucky I only work a knowledge job rather than an intelligence-based one.

AGI is a marketing term. It has no consistent definition. It's not very useful when trying to reason about AI's capabilities.

Re: Why Claude's Comment Paper Is a Poor Rebuttal

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a human will struggle to solve Hanoi using the recursive algorithm for even 6 disks, even given pen and paper. Does that change if you give them the algorithm description? No. Conversely, the LLMs already know the algorithm, so including it in the prompt makes no difference.

> I think a human will struggle to solve Hanoi using the recursive algorithm for even 6 disks, even given pen and paper. Why? The whole point of the recursive algorithm is that it doesn't matter how many discs you're working with. The ordinary children's toys that implement the puzzle are essentially always sold with more than 6 discs. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=towers+of+hanoi

The recursive solution has a stack depth proportional to the number of disks. That's three pieces (two pegs and how many disks to move) of data for each recursive call, so for 6 disks the "stack" will contain up to around 15 values, which is generally higher than an unaided human will be able to track.

In addition, 64-256 moves is quite a lot and I suspect people will generally lose focus before completing them.

Re: Why Claude's Comment Paper Is a Poor Rebuttal

#40
This rebuttal-of-a-rebuttal looks to me as if it gets one (fairly important) thing right but pretty much everything else wrong. (Not all in the same direction; the rebuttal^2 fails to point out what seems to me to be the single biggest deficiency in the rebuttal.)

The thing it gets right: the "Illusion of illusion" rebuttal claims that in the original "Illusion of Thinking" paper's version of the Towers of Hanoi problem, "The authors’ evaluation format requires outputting the full sequence of moves at each step, leading to quadratic token growth"; this doesn't seem to be true at all, and this "Beyond Token Limits" rebuttal^2 is correct to point it out.

(This implies, in particular, that there's something fishy in the IoI rebuttal's little table showing where 5(2^n-1)^2 exceeds the token budget, which they claim explains the alleged "collapse" at roughly those points.)

Things it gets wrong:

"The rebuttal conflates solution length with computational difficulty". This is just flatly false. The IoI rebuttal explicitly makes pretty much the same points as the BTL rebuttal^2 does here.

"The rebuttal paper’s own data contradicts its thesis. Its own data shows that models can generate long sequences when they choose to, but in the findings of the original Apple paper, it finds that models systematically choose NOT to generate longer reasoning traces on harder problems, effectively just giving up." I don't see anything in the rebuttal that "shows that models can generate long sequences when they choose to". What the rebuttal finds is that (specifically for the ToH problem) if you allow the models to answer by describing the procedure rather than enumerating all its steps, they can do it. The original paper didn't allow them to do this. There's no contradiction here.

"It instead completely ignores this finding [that once solutions reach a certain level of difficulty the models give up trying to give complete answers] and offers no explanation as to why models would systematically reduce computational effort when faced with harder problems."

The rebuttal doesn't completely ignore this finding. That little table of alleged ToH token counts is precisely targeted at this finding. (It seems like it's wrong, which is important, but the problem here isn't that the paper ignores this issue, it's that it has a mistake that invalidates how it addresses the issue.)

Things that a good rebuttal^2 should point out but this rebuttal completely ignores:

The most glaring one, to me, is that the rebuttal focuses almost entirely on the Tower of Hanoi, where there's a plausible "the only problem is that there aren't enough tokens" issue, and largely ignores the other problems that the original paper also claims to find "collapse" problems with. Maybe token-limit issues are also sufficient explanation for the problems with other models (e.g., if something is effectively only solvable by exhaustive search, then maybe there aren't enough tokens for the model to do that search in) but the rebuttal never actually makes that argument (e.g., by estimating how many tokens are needed to do the relevant exhaustive search).

The rebuttal does point out what if correct is a serious problem with the original paper's treatment of the "River Crossing" problem (apparently the problem they asked the AI to solve is literally unsolvable for many of the cases they put to it), but the unsolvability starts at N=6 and the original paper finds that the models were unable to solve the problem starting at N=3.

(Anecdata: I had a go at solving the River Crossing problem for N=3 myself. I made a stupid mistake that stopped me finding a solution and didn't have sufficient patience to track it down. My guess is that if you could spawn many independent copies of me and ask them all to solve it, probably about 2/3 would solve it and 1/3 would screw up in something like the way actual-me did. If I actually needed to solve it for larger N I'd write some code, which I suspect the AI models could do about as well as I could. For what it's worth, I think the amount of text-editor scribbling I did while not solving the puzzle was quite a bit less than the thinking-token limits these models had.)

The rebuttal^2 does complain about the "narrow focus" of the rebuttal, but it means something else by that.

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