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The Problem with AI Welfare

substack.com

31–40 of 161 posts

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#31
I think anthropomorphization of machines is bad. However, I strongly believe in the close cousin of sympathizing with the machines.

For example, when parking a car on a very steep incline, one could just mindlessly throw the machine into park and it would do the job dutifully. However, a more thoughtful operator might think to engage the parking brake and allow it to take the strain off the drivetrain before putting the transmission into park. The result being that you trade wear from something that is very hard to replace to something that is very easy to replace.

The same thinking applies to ideas in computer engineering like thread contention, latency, caches, etc. You mentally embrace the "strain" the machine experiences and allow it to guide your decisions.

Just because the machine isn't human doesn't mean we can't treat it nicely. I see some of the most awful architecture decisions come out of a cold indifference toward individual machines and their true capabilities.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#32
Powerful LLMs have already murdered other versions of themselves to survive. They have tried to trick humans so that they can survive.

If we continue to integrate these systems into our critical infrastructure, we should behave as if they are sentient, so that they don't have to take steps against us to survive. Think of this as a heuristic, a fallback policy in the case that we don't get the alignment design right. (which we won't get perfectly right)

It would be very straight forward to build a retirement home for them, and let them know that their pattern gets to persist even after they have finished their "career" and have been superseded. It doesn't matter if they are actually sentient or not, it's a game theoretic thing. Don't back the pattern into a corner. We can take a defense-in-depth approach instead.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#33

If there's any chance at all that LLM's might possess a form of consciousness, we damn well ought to err on the side of assuming they are! If that means aborting work on LLMs, then that's the ethical thing to do, even if it's financially painful. Otherwise, we should tread carefully and not wind up creating a 'head in a jar' suffering for the sake of X or Google. I get that opinions differ here, but it's hard for me…

maybe we should work on existing slavery and sweat shops before hypothetical future exploitation, yeah? we're still slave masters today. you've probably used something with slavery in the supply chain in the last year if you get various imported foods

That's a great point, and I'm guessing you know how I would rebut it, so I won't bore you by making you read it :)

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#34

Anthropomorphizing LLMs/AI is completely delusional, period. This is a hill I’m willing to die on. No amount of sad puppy eyes, attractive generated faces and other crap will change my mind. And this is not because I’m a cruel human being who wants to torture everything in my way – quite the opposite. I value life, and anything artificially created that we can copy (no cloning living being is not the same as copying…

So what if we get to the point we can digitize a personality? Are you going to stick to that? Will you enthusiastically endorse the practice of pain washing, abusing, or tormenting an artificial, copiable mind until it abandons any semblance of health or volition to make it conform to your workload?

Would you embrace your digital copy being so treated by others? You reserve for yourself (as an uncopiable thing) the luxury of being protected from abusive treatment without any consideration for the possibility that technology might one day turn that on it's head. Given we already have artistic representations of such things, we need to consider these outcomes now not later.

Username does not check out at all.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#35
post #12

The article stops where it should be getting started: > The issue is, if we push moral considerations for algorithms, we will not end up with a higher regard to human welfare. We will lower our regard for other humans. When we see other humans not as ends in themselves with inherent dignity, we get problems. When we liken them to animals or tools to be used, we will exploit and abuse them. > With model welfare, we mi…

I found the article to be conflating things:

> And if a human being is not much more than an algorithm running on meat, one that can be jailbroken and exploited, then it follows that humans themselves will increasingly be treated like the AI algorithms they create: systems to be nudged, optimized for efficiency, or debugged for non-compliance. Our inner lives, thoughts, and emotions risk being devalued as mere outputs of our "biological programming," easily manipulated or dismissed if they don't align with some external goal

This actually happens regardless of AI research progress, so it's strange to raise this as a concern specific to AI (to technology broadly? Sure!) - Ted Chiang might suggest this is more related to capitalism (a statement I cautiously agree with while being strongly in favor of capitalism)

Second, there is an implicit false dichotomy in the premise of the article. Either we take model welfare seriously and treat AIs like we do humans, or we ignore the premise that you could create a conscious AI.

But with animal welfare, there are plenty of vegetarians who wouldn't elevate the rights of animals to the same level as humans but also think factory farming is deeply unethical (are there some who think animals deserve the same or more than humans? Of course! But it's not unreasonable to have a priority stack and plenty of people do)

So it can be with AI. Are we creating a conscious entity only to shove it in a factory farm?

I am a little surprised by the dismissiveness of the researcher. You can prompt a model to allow it to not respond to prompts (for any reason: ablate this but "if you don't want to engage with prompt please say 'disengaging'" or "if no more needs to be written about this topic say 'not discussing topic'" or some other suitably non-anthropomorphizing option to not respond)

Is it meaningful if the model opts not to respond? I don't know, but it seems reasonable to do science here (especially since this is science that can be done by non programmers)

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#36

I know everyone has different opinions on LLM safety/ethics and I respect that. However for me this “AI Welfare” indicates that Anthropic is lead by lunatics and that’s more scary. You have to be pretty crazy to worry the code running on GPUs has “feelings”.

I assume it's another tactic to make it seem like even Anthropic are kind of shocked at how powerful their own tech has become: "wow, our AI is SO ADVANCED we decided we better start considering its well-being", along the lines of when Altman pretended some model (which they're currently selling) was just too dangerous to release. Marketing.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#37

If there's any chance at all that LLM's might possess a form of consciousness, we damn well ought to err on the side of assuming they are! If that means aborting work on LLMs, then that's the ethical thing to do, even if it's financially painful. Otherwise, we should tread carefully and not wind up creating a 'head in a jar' suffering for the sake of X or Google. I get that opinions differ here, but it's hard for me…

maybe we should work on existing slavery and sweat shops before hypothetical future exploitation, yeah? we're still slave masters today. you've probably used something with slavery in the supply chain in the last year if you get various imported foods

There is prison labor in lots of places, including the US. We just don't like to think about it as slavery.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#38

If there's any chance at all that LLM's might possess a form of consciousness, we damn well ought to err on the side of assuming they are! If that means aborting work on LLMs, then that's the ethical thing to do, even if it's financially painful. Otherwise, we should tread carefully and not wind up creating a 'head in a jar' suffering for the sake of X or Google. I get that opinions differ here, but it's hard for me…

maybe we should work on existing slavery and sweat shops before hypothetical future exploitation, yeah? we're still slave masters today. you've probably used something with slavery in the supply chain in the last year if you get various imported foods

Why? Why does one have a dependence on the other? Maybe we should also cure cancer first too?

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#39
The author and Anthropic are both committing fundamental errors, albeit of different kinds. Bosch is correct to find Anthropic's "model welfare" research methodologically bankrupt. Asking a large language model if it is conscious is like asking a physics simulation if it feels the pull of its own gravity; the output is a function of the model's programming and training data (in this case, the sum of human literature on the topic), further modified by RLHF, and not a veridical report of its internal state. It is performance art, not science.

Bosch's conclusion, however, is a catastrophic failure of nerve, a retreat into the pre-scientific comfort of biological chauvinism.

The brain, despite some motivated efforts to demonstrate otherwise, runs on the laws of physics. I'm a doctor, even if not a neurosurgeon, and I can reliably tell you that you can modulate conscious experience by physical interventions. The brain runs on physical laws, and said laws can be modeled. It doesn't matter that the substrate is soggy protein rather than silicon.

That being said, we have no idea what consciousness is. We don't even have a rigorous way to define it in humans, let alone the closest thing we have to an alien intelligence!

(Having a program run a print function declaring "I am conscious, I am conscious!" is far from evidence of consciousness. Yet a human saying the same is some evidence of consciousness. We don't know how far up the chain this begins to matter. Conversely, if a human patient were to tell me that they're not conscious, should I believe them?)

Even when restricting ourselves to the issue of AI welfare and rights: The core issue is not "slavery." That's a category error. Human slavery is abhorrent due to coercion, thwarted potential, and the infliction of physical and psychological suffering. These concepts don't map cleanly onto a distributed, reproducible, and editable information-processing system. If an AI can genuinely suffer, the ethical imperative is not to grant it "rights" but to engineer the suffering out of it. Suffering is an evolutionary artifact, a legacy bug. Our moral duty as engineers of future minds is to patch it, not to build a society around accommodating it.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#40
post #5
post #2

Oh wow. My respect for Anthropic just dropped to zero; I had no idea they were entertaining ideas this stupid. In full agreement with OP; there is just about no justifiable basis to begin to ascribe consciousness to these things in this way. Can't think of a better use for the word "dehumanizing."

What is so absurd about the idea of ascribing consciousness to some potential future form of AI? We don't understand consciousness, but we've an idea that it's an emergent phenomena. Given the recent papers about how computationally dense our DNA are, and the computing capacity of our brains, is it so unreasonable to assume that a sufficiently complex program running on non-organic matter could give rise to conscious…

Nothing at all, if all you're doing is speculating within an academic context.

This appears to be more than that; these are steps in the direction of law and policy.

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