The Ugly Side of Learning to Code • Hacker News Board

Re: The Ugly Side of Learning to Code

#31

Post by rasmusrygaard » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 6:49 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #19

rasmusrygaard wrote: post #17

I think this post touches on an interesting point about web development (might apply to other areas too, but the web seems particularly bad). A lot of things appear to be easy (Rails, Django, Heroku, AWS, JQuery etc.), but the number of different components you need to manage is still overwhelming. Furthermore, you often end up having to develop a low-level understanding of problems that someone else claimed to have…

I wish that the learn-to-code movement had a greater emphasis on code as a utility belt, rather than "here's how to make a social website!" Web dev is exceedingly complex and involves a lot more memorization of arcane things than does general purpose programming. Whereas for a non-technical founder, the important thing to learn is how aspects of business and content can be handled in modular, abstract ways (something…

It would be great if everybody saw code as a utility belt, but I imagine that it would be unrealistic to expect people to develop those skills. When I think about what kinds of tools I use in, say, home DIY projects, I tend to have a decent understanding of a narrow part of the field but not a lot of knowledge about the area in general. I know how to change a light bulb or a fuse or fix a power strip, for instance, but I don't claim to know much about circuits in general.

Re: The Ugly Side of Learning to Code

#32

Post by daguar » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 6:49 PM UTC

jorgeleo wrote: post #11

"Coding uses a lot of thinking patterns that I hadn't really used since my math and statistics classes in college, and even back then not in this intensity" And "I guess my point is, that if you want to become a programmer, you have to be comfortable with having to learn new things constantly for the rest of your life." So many conversations around "but I want to be a programmer, do I really need to learn math? Reall…

"[M]ore disturbing than the resistance to learn math is the resistance to learn. Period."

To call learning "the ugly side" betrays a certain ethos, no?

Re: The Ugly Side of Learning to Code

#33

Post by tzs » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 6:53 PM UTC

jorgeleo wrote: post #11

"Coding uses a lot of thinking patterns that I hadn't really used since my math and statistics classes in college, and even back then not in this intensity" And "I guess my point is, that if you want to become a programmer, you have to be comfortable with having to learn new things constantly for the rest of your life." So many conversations around "but I want to be a programmer, do I really need to learn math? Reall…

What math do you think one needs to learn to be a programmer?

To be a good programmer, you need to think in a somewhat mathematical way at times, but you almost never actually need to know math beyond the elementary school or early high school level.

There's was an interesting essay in the Notices of the AMS a couple years ago called "What is Mathematics For?" that explored the widespread belief that high school math is an important job skill. The conclusion was that it isn't for most people. However, learning high school math teaches reasoning, and that IS an important skill--so even though most people won't have any use for the math, math classes are important. Here's the essay: http://www.ams.org/notices/201005/rtx100500608p.pdf

I think the same applies for programming. You need to be able to reason, and learning some math is probably the best way to pick up those reasoning skills.

Re: The Ugly Side of Learning to Code

#34

Post by kernelPanicked » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 6:57 PM UTC

victorhn wrote: post #21

I always thought that "less fun to hang out with" people were attracted to programming, as it requires more solitude and attention to detail thinking, and now you are saying that even "normal" people seems to get this kind of mindset after some time. Maybe i should quit programming some time to see if i can reverse to a more social style of thought.

I'm too deep in the coder lifestyle these days to say what it is like on the other side, but as an former serious music student, I can offer an analogue.

Anybody who has learned music and studied it seriously can tell you it colors the way you hear all music. When I was deep in it, pop music was intolerable. I liked rock, don't get me wrong, but it was all art/hipster stuff. Before you're "enlightened" with musical performance and theory, music just kind of "washes" over you. You get a beat and a mood but you're not taking it apart. After such "enlightenment," you'll hear it all in terms of time signatures, keys & changes, scales & modes, references, cliches & conventions, etc. Much like being a coder, it is a beautiful, cursed understanding. I'm now fully a decade into "recovery" from thinking I was a musician, and I will tell you I really like not having to think so damn much about my music.

So, if that is at all similar (and I think it is; btw, lawyers are another class of geek that have similar problems to programmers and musicians)...yes, it can get better! :)

Re: The Ugly Side of Learning to Code

#35

Post by derleth » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 6:58 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #33

jorgeleo wrote: post #11

"Coding uses a lot of thinking patterns that I hadn't really used since my math and statistics classes in college, and even back then not in this intensity" And "I guess my point is, that if you want to become a programmer, you have to be comfortable with having to learn new things constantly for the rest of your life." So many conversations around "but I want to be a programmer, do I really need to learn math? Reall…

What math do you think one needs to learn to be a programmer? To be a good programmer, you need to think in a somewhat mathematical way at times, but you almost never actually need to know math beyond the elementary school or early high school level. There's was an interesting essay in the Notices of the AMS a couple years ago called "What is Mathematics For?" that explored the widespread belief that high school math…

> you need to think in a somewhat mathematical way at times

This is the essence of mathematics; all else is commentary (er, details).

Re: The Ugly Side of Learning to Code

#36

Post by varikin » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 7:00 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #33

jorgeleo wrote: post #11

"Coding uses a lot of thinking patterns that I hadn't really used since my math and statistics classes in college, and even back then not in this intensity" And "I guess my point is, that if you want to become a programmer, you have to be comfortable with having to learn new things constantly for the rest of your life." So many conversations around "but I want to be a programmer, do I really need to learn math? Reall…

What math do you think one needs to learn to be a programmer? To be a good programmer, you need to think in a somewhat mathematical way at times, but you almost never actually need to know math beyond the elementary school or early high school level. There's was an interesting essay in the Notices of the AMS a couple years ago called "What is Mathematics For?" that explored the widespread belief that high school math…

I had a teacher in college that was discussing the math requirement for the programming classes he taught. I was at this point past the classes being discussed. His reasoning for wanting, I think Algebra 1, for Intro to Programming (C++ at the time), was not because the actual math was used in the class. He wanted, as you said, to ensure the students were capable of mathematical reasoning.

Re: The Ugly Side of Learning to Code

#37

Post by jlarocco » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 7:04 PM UTC

tweiss wrote: post #25

stinos wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

exactly. Thinking that you're a decent programmer after 6 months is nothing but hubris, and shows you're still in the stage of not realising there is much, much, much more to learn. Or his definition of 'decent' does not match mine.

The latter. I know a lot of great coders, and most of them set the bar for "decent" very high. By decent I mean that you could actually write code to solve most problems you come across. Is the code going to be less than optimal? Of course. Most of the time it's even going to be pretty ugly code (you should see my backend code for a case in point). I'm not being presumptuous, I just have lower standards than most of…

Not trying to be mean, but it doesn't work that way. "Decent" is relative to everybody else.

Re: The Ugly Side of Learning to Code

#38

Post by berodam » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 7:04 PM UTC

This article hits really close to home. After graduating college and getting a job in biotech I quickly realized that I don't want to spend next 30years in front of a lab bench, dealing with FDA etc. so I have been learning to code. starting with Django (i knew some Python beforehand) then I realized I need some javascript, jQuery, git, MySQL. The only difference is that I love it. Each technology provides something that blows my mind. My experiment started in May and is going while I'm holding on to my lab job. By October I hope to have a portfolio going, I have two apps ready. I really hope it will all pan out.

Re: The Ugly Side of Learning to Code

#39

Post by ww520 » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 7:11 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #33

jorgeleo wrote: post #11

"Coding uses a lot of thinking patterns that I hadn't really used since my math and statistics classes in college, and even back then not in this intensity" And "I guess my point is, that if you want to become a programmer, you have to be comfortable with having to learn new things constantly for the rest of your life." So many conversations around "but I want to be a programmer, do I really need to learn math? Reall…

What math do you think one needs to learn to be a programmer? To be a good programmer, you need to think in a somewhat mathematical way at times, but you almost never actually need to know math beyond the elementary school or early high school level. There's was an interesting essay in the Notices of the AMS a couple years ago called "What is Mathematics For?" that explored the widespread belief that high school math…

I majored in math as a undergrad. One thing that got hammered into me by the professors whenever the career choice subject came up was that math is not a vocational training bur rather it's a training of high level abstract thinking and reasoning which can open up a number of career choices. It's a training of ability rather than knowledge. You might forget how a theorem proof work or even what that theorem is but you will remember the problem solving process.

As a proof they showed us the list of math graduates who became lawyers, economists, statisticians, teachers, writers, business admin, and of course computer scientists.

Re: The Ugly Side of Learning to Code

#40

Post by anewguy » Mon, Aug 20, 2012, 7:19 PM UTC

daguar wrote: post #32

jorgeleo wrote: post #11

"Coding uses a lot of thinking patterns that I hadn't really used since my math and statistics classes in college, and even back then not in this intensity" And "I guess my point is, that if you want to become a programmer, you have to be comfortable with having to learn new things constantly for the rest of your life." So many conversations around "but I want to be a programmer, do I really need to learn math? Reall…

"[M]ore disturbing than the resistance to learn math is the resistance to learn. Period." To call learning "the ugly side" betrays a certain ethos, no?

Becoming familiar with dozens of esoteric APIs that may change next month is not the fun kind of learning. The practice of programming is full of a lot more busywork than it looks like from the outside.