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The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

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Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#31
post #3

While the author is technically right, I must argue that in the area of sound work, decibels make sense. Zero is base level, -3db is half loudness, +3dB is double. There may be a better way to describe loudness, but decibel is good enough.

> -3db is half loudness

Sure, perfect sense.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#33
This seems exceedingly ignorant of the work decibels do in telecommunications, RF and fibre engineering. The voltage vs power relationship is something that exists and is a core memory of beginner blunders in the field, but it boils down to a simple 10 vs 20 division operation. Besides that, the decibel simplifies a lot of multiplying very small and very big numbers to summing of two-digit numbers that you can do in your head, and still preserve a big degree of accuracy.

Whining about it makes me really doubt that the OP has any practical experience about the things they're talking about.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#34
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So on my amplifier, 0db is the loudest and -50db, where I usually listen is what? -47db is definitely not twice as loud as -50db, of course.

I'm not confident in what I'm saying here, so please correct me if I'm wrong as I'd like to learn: Human hearing isn't linear in terms of loudness. So a 3db increase in loudness sounds like "an increase", but the pressure is actually double. Hence, it makes sense to use db to describe loudness even in the context of perceived loudness to human-hearing. This is similar to brightness. In photography, "stops" are used t…

[deleted]

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#35
Another surprising place decibels pop up, pretty far from loudness related things, is in image comparison metrics. Peak signal-to-noise ratio is mean squared error normalized by a certain peak intensity and it is generally expressed in dB, i.e. as 10 log10(normalized mse). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_signal-to-noise_ratio

Edit: typo

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#36
When I worked on a radar project, my fellow radar engineers (I'm software) used dB a lot. A lot of them would actually agree with the article, but historical sometimes wins even when you're aware of its shortcomings. Aren't we the same in software anyway? The email protocol, terminal escape sequences, the UX of git command line, etc... Each of those could have an "X is ridiculous" blog post (and I would enjoy every single one).

One upside of dB not touched in the article is that it changes multiplication into addition. So you can do math of gains and attenuations in your head a bit more conveniently. Why this would be useful in the age of computers is confusing, but on some radio projects both gains and losses are actually enormous exponents when expressed linearly, so I sort of see why you would switch to logs (aka decibels). Kinda like how you switch to adding logs instead of multiplying a lot of small floats for numerical computing.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#37
post #32
post #22

[flagged]

Obviously there are better ways. The author mentioned several. Eg you could clean up the naming of the variants of the unit, and make it no less useful for RF work, and strictly better in general.

Sorry but no.

Absolutely no one cares about the mathematical purity of a unit like the decibel. It's a hammer that turns log stuff into easy to work with linear stuff. It's x10 because that turns into reasonably easy to use numbers with enough precision to use casually. Otherwise it's just a log ratio. Any suffix is a log ratio to a reference value for the entire system (dBv / dBm etc).

Say in a 50 ohm system I have an level 7 mixer then I need 7dBm into the port. My oscillator kicks out 0dBm (1mW). Then I need a 7dB gain block. I go to the datasheet for the MMIC and pick out a bias network that gives me around 7dB. I grab a eval board for the MMIC, solder the resistors on it, shove this on my VNA and throw 0dBm in one end and see if 7dBm comes out of the other end at the frequency I need.

It's like Laplace. Do you really want to spend hours doing calculus?

Source: actual electrical engineer, not some clueless hobby blogger. I really wish people would stop writing authoritative sounding articles on stuff they clearly have little experience with.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#39

The author seems confused. Decibels aren’t units. They’re a way to express a ratio between a reference value and some other value. They’re used where they are useful.

They are units too. When you have regulations relating to sound they will say how many dB the limit is.

Re: The scientific “unit” we call the decibel

#40
The only thing you should know is that any use of bel and thus decibel should ideally have the reference level suffixed (usually in parentheses or subscript), not implied. The absolute sound pressure level is dB(SPL). The human-perceived loudness level is dB(A) and similar. The RMS voltage expressed in power is dB(u) (formerly dB(v), not same as capital dB(V)). And so on. And then each different instance of dB unit is simply distinct, only connected by the fact that it represents some ratio in the logarithmic fashion. Treat any new dB unit you haven't seen as an alien.
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