Live data from Hacker News

Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

bbc.co.uk

31–40 of 120 posts

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#31
post #27
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has given prisoners to the CIA to be tortured in Egypt. Sweden has illegally tried to shut down The Pirate Bay under the pressure of the US. Will Sweden give Assange to the US? It seems very likely. Many people have pointed out in HN that the sex was consensual according to the 2 women, but the issue is about protected or unprotected sex. Rape has a different definition in the Swedish legal code than everywher…

Many people have pointed out in HN that the sex was consensual according to the 2 women, but the issue is about protected or unprotected sex. Rape has a different definition in the Swedish legal code than everywhere else in the world. Lots of people are trying to point out that Assange isn't being accused of rape, but some sort of "not-using-a-condom" silly rape law that is only the law is whacky Sweden, herp de derp…

> Lots of people are trying to point out that Assange isn't being accused of rape, but some sort of "not-using-a-condom" silly rape law that is only the law is whacky Sweden, herp de derp feminists de derp political correctness gone mad.

I agree. Telling a woman you're going to use a condom so she'll sleep with you, then taking it off halfway into sex because it feels better and you don't care about the woman's choice isn't at all a violation of her sexual rights.

She doesn't get to pick how the penis goes into her, the man does! Fucking herp de derp feminists.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#32

I know it's very contrarian to not be 100% pro Assange on this board but all I ever see are the pro Assange interpretation of the facts. Some things to consider: - "Sometime during Wilen's questioning the police announced to Ardin and Wilen that Assange was to be arrested and questioned about possible rape and molestation." This was the initial questioning by local authorities. So unless every police station in every…

What Julian fears is that he will be extradited to the US from Sweden, because both countries have a special treaty. So the "conspiracy" is not about jailing him for rape, is about having him in a Swedish prison long enough so the US can formally charge him for espionage and request his extradition. Even if he is found innocent of the rape charges, that would take days, long enough for the US to request the extradition. But if this is done while Assange is in the UK, then he most probably would win the appeal against being extradited to Sweden in the first place.

Also, this is very time-consuming and Wikileaks is hardly publishing as much as it used to. So in some way, the "conspiracy" is working out.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#33

I don't think Julian jumping bail and fleeing to the Ecuadorian embassy will do him any favours. Now the UK and Sweden are angry at him and Ecuador and Australia's embarrassed. Sure, the US does want to question him. But they haven't issued an extradition request, and by the looks of things getting him out of Sweden would be just as difficult as getting him out of the UK, if not more so. I highly suspect Assange is a…

I agree, and can't help but question the claims he will be extradited to the US from Sweden, since if he was going to be extradited from anywhere it would be the UK.

The UK can't extradite him if he's technically not on UK territory.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#34

I know it's very contrarian to not be 100% pro Assange on this board but all I ever see are the pro Assange interpretation of the facts. Some things to consider: - "Sometime during Wilen's questioning the police announced to Ardin and Wilen that Assange was to be arrested and questioned about possible rape and molestation." This was the initial questioning by local authorities. So unless every police station in every…

Let me point out. There is at least _one_ conspiracy here.

Either some combination of the US/UK/Sweden is conspiring to bring Assange to the US. OR. Ecuador is granting Assange's asylum not because in their best judgement they believed it was warranted but for some more nefarious, maybe political, reason like spiting Sweden or the UK.

Or maybe there is no conspiracy and Ecuador is just as stupid as most HN commenters.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#35

I know it's very contrarian to not be 100% pro Assange on this board but all I ever see are the pro Assange interpretation of the facts. Some things to consider: - "Sometime during Wilen's questioning the police announced to Ardin and Wilen that Assange was to be arrested and questioned about possible rape and molestation." This was the initial questioning by local authorities. So unless every police station in every…

> "Sometime during Wilen's questioning the police announced to Ardin and Wilen that Assange was to be arrested and questioned about possible rape and molestation." This was the initial questioning by local authorities. So unless every police station in every part of Sweden had been told to get Assange no matter what at any opportunity it's unlikely this was some conspiracy. Perhaps the local police station over reacted - but no conspiracy

I mostly agree with your conclusion, but keep in mind that Wilen and Ardin went to a specific police station out of their way where they knew someone. So if there was a conspiracy that involved them, then that would be the likely means - a co-conspirator at this specific police station. That said, I think it's more likely they were "just" trying to cause inconveniences for Assange based on Ardin's infamous "revenge" blog post (commentary on using vague statements to the police to trigger an investigation as a means of "legal revenge")

> - "Within 24 hours, a more senior prosecutor dismissed the rape allegations, leaving only the lesser accusation of molestation. Assange willingly went to the police on August 30th and made a statement." Ok so the further up the chain it goes the initial charge is reduced. If there was a conspiracy at this point wouldn't it work the other way?

You miss the point afterwards where the prosecutor changed.

The senior prosecutor that dismissed most of the allegations is NOT Marianne Ny - the current prosecutor. Marianne Ny took the extremely unusual step of stepping in to take over the case after this other senior prosecutor had all but closed it after finding that no crime had occurred.

So indeed, if there is a conspiracy, the conspirators stepped in at this point, and the very fact a prosecutor stepped in like this is strange. It is not a common occurrence, and certainly not to have a prosecutor so publicly pretty much totally reversing the decision of another.

> "On September 15th, the prosecutor told Assange he was permitted to leave Sweden." More than two weeks after the initial report he's still allowed to leave Sweden. Surely if the US government wanted to use this case to trump up charges and have him arrested and deported via a proxy state (as is so often stated) wouldn't they have gotten the ball rolling within those two weeks?

Personally I think it is more likely that this is Marianne Ny and the advocate for the alleged victims deciding they have a chance of trying to push for even stricter interpretations of Swedish rape law. They are both known to be extremely radical in their opinions on the subject, and that fits better with both of them swooping in.

IF the US wants to use this as an opportunity, I believe it would be just that: An opportunity that might open up. That the whole case is a premeditated conspiracy does seem like far too big a stretch.

But if they want to get hold of him, Sweden is a convenient place to have him holed up, as the CIA has repeatedly shown they are willing to risk diplomatic incidents with Sweden (and/or obtain assistance from Swedish authorities).

> if he's in Sweden, there's a less robust extradition relationship than there is between the US and the UK

That's just pure comedy gold. There are several high profile extradition cases between the US and UK that have gone on for years. E.g. McKinnon who is still in the UK 10 years after his initial arrest. Meanwhile, Sweden tends to rubberstamp extraditions, and Swedish police have handed people over to CIA goons without due process. If I was at risk of extradition to the US, I'd much rather be in the UK than Sweden.

> If this is a conspiracy to get Assange then it's a pretty poorly orchestrated one at this stage.

I agree. It is probably not a conspiracy, at least not to extradite him. Though of course it is working wonderfully if it is an intentional attempt to ruin his credibility.

But assuming it's not, that doesn't mean it might not be convenient, and it also doesn't mean that there's not reason to believe that there's politics involved in this case, though I'd be more inclined to believe that would be due to Marianne Ny (the prosecutor).

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#36

I know it's very contrarian to not be 100% pro Assange on this board but all I ever see are the pro Assange interpretation of the facts. Some things to consider: - "Sometime during Wilen's questioning the police announced to Ardin and Wilen that Assange was to be arrested and questioned about possible rape and molestation." This was the initial questioning by local authorities. So unless every police station in every…

"If there was a conspiracy at this point"... If there was a conspiracy at that point, then why did Assange go to Sweden at all? Why does a (postulated) conspiracy have to be well organized and able to operate at the spur of the moment? How long does it take to get the jurisdictional pieces in play/place? How often do the (hypothetical) people involved get a chance to practice for this sort of event?

I have very little experience with such matters. In reading various historical events (I'm reading about the founding of Panama now), it seems that a lot of luck is an important factor.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#37

I don't think Julian jumping bail and fleeing to the Ecuadorian embassy will do him any favours. Now the UK and Sweden are angry at him and Ecuador and Australia's embarrassed. Sure, the US does want to question him. But they haven't issued an extradition request, and by the looks of things getting him out of Sweden would be just as difficult as getting him out of the UK, if not more so. I highly suspect Assange is a…

No please don't think like that. Assange even said today he would agree to go to Sweden, if they promise to not send him to the U.S. He's terrible afraid of being send to the U.S, and rightly so. The U.S. repeatedly demonstrated, that when it comes to political prisoners they don't care much about human rights, the law, or habeas corpus. Look how Bradley Manning is being treated or may I just remind you of Guantanamo Bay? These things really happen.

Now Assange believes, that the extradition to Sweden, for whatever reason, is just a false pretence to send him to the U.S. What makes the whole case dubious is the timing the case came up, which was right after WikiLeaks's diplomatic cables release, and also that Sweden immediately issued an InterPol warrant, which is kinda unusual for the alleged charges. So I'd be highly suspicious, too.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#38
post #27
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has given prisoners to the CIA to be tortured in Egypt. Sweden has illegally tried to shut down The Pirate Bay under the pressure of the US. Will Sweden give Assange to the US? It seems very likely. Many people have pointed out in HN that the sex was consensual according to the 2 women, but the issue is about protected or unprotected sex. Rape has a different definition in the Swedish legal code than everywher…

Many people have pointed out in HN that the sex was consensual according to the 2 women, but the issue is about protected or unprotected sex. Rape has a different definition in the Swedish legal code than everywhere else in the world. Lots of people are trying to point out that Assange isn't being accused of rape, but some sort of "not-using-a-condom" silly rape law that is only the law is whacky Sweden, herp de derp…

Again: There are no charges. There is an arrest warrant to question him on suspicion. Charges would be the next step if they decide to proceed.

The UK courts found that the Swedish prosecutors unilateral interpretation of the evidence as stated in the EAW would amount to rape under UK law.

But this description has not been used to file charges with a Swedish court, and the woman in question have previously claimed to the press that she refuses to sign the statements that the prosecutor has based this description on. So at this stage it is pure speculation whether or not the prosecutors even believe they have anything that amounts to sufficient basis for a rape charge.

This does not mean that it's not possible that they will file actual rape charges. It does mean that it is worth pointing out that the only clear cut accusation of rape so far comes from the prosecutor, and that only in a document she has every opportunity to ignore the contents off for the future should she so choose.

It would most certainly not be the first time a Scandinavian prosecutor have used claims in an arrest warrant only to end up with no charges at all or much reduced charges once they actually have to file documents backed up by the evidence in front of a court with the power to actually investigate the evidence.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#39

I don't think Julian jumping bail and fleeing to the Ecuadorian embassy will do him any favours. Now the UK and Sweden are angry at him and Ecuador and Australia's embarrassed. Sure, the US does want to question him. But they haven't issued an extradition request, and by the looks of things getting him out of Sweden would be just as difficult as getting him out of the UK, if not more so. I highly suspect Assange is a…

Of course you might dismiss this link as pro-assange but I found it quite informing on the different extradition scenarios.

http://justice4assange.com/US-Extradition.html

I personally will be glad to see Assange in Swede to face his accusations but I'm also concerned by the risks of extraditing him to the US.

For instance this week the Ecuador said they asked Britain and Swede for assurances of not extraditing him to the US and they said No. Even if their argument is that their justice is independent and therefore cannot make such promise I find it very convenient for them to use this argument.

So am I deluded in conspiracy theories? I don't think so, the best proof is to see the treatment Pvt. Manning received at Quantico, I therefore think there are big powers behind the scene trying to shut down this new whistleblower movement by making examples. I'm not approving all of their actions but I really think they are not criminals and it should be easy to find bigger fish to fry.

Re: Julian Assange urges US to end Wikileaks 'witch-hunt'

#40
post #37

I don't think Julian jumping bail and fleeing to the Ecuadorian embassy will do him any favours. Now the UK and Sweden are angry at him and Ecuador and Australia's embarrassed. Sure, the US does want to question him. But they haven't issued an extradition request, and by the looks of things getting him out of Sweden would be just as difficult as getting him out of the UK, if not more so. I highly suspect Assange is a…

No please don't think like that. Assange even said today he would agree to go to Sweden, if they promise to not send him to the U.S. He's terrible afraid of being send to the U.S, and rightly so. The U.S. repeatedly demonstrated, that when it comes to political prisoners they don't care much about human rights, the law, or habeas corpus. Look how Bradley Manning is being treated or may I just remind you of Guantanamo…

A red interpol warrant, no less. Qaddafi got an orange. My views have changed.
Post reply on HN