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Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

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Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#31

Post by owebmaster »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #2

Globalization played a role but so did bad policy. When the Obama administration didn’t respond to China dumping below-cost solar on the US, I know many technologists who lost their job and career in the US because they couldn’t compete with companies that didn’t have to follow environmental protection rules. Americans are addicted to artificially low prices that put the burden of costs on future generations who have…

> When the Obama administration didn’t respond to China dumping below-cost solar on the US

What should other countries do against VC tech dumping?

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#32

Post by FuriouslyAdrift »

From someone who lived through the first wave of disruptions (agriculture going to Mexico and auto manufacturing getting disrupted by Japan/moving to Canada/Mexico) in the 1980s/1990s (earlier agreements with Canada then NAFTA), then the second disruption (textiles, light industrial, then everything going to China) in the 2000s (China most favored nation status and WTO) in a heavy industrial/ag state (Indiana) and seeing everyone they knew get wiped out over those 15-20 years...

I can say the sentiment comes from the people who USED to be middle class that are no longer.

The people who are middle class today are rarely the same people.

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#33

Post by FuriouslyAdrift »

robotcapital wrote: post #4
mensetmanusman wrote: post #2

Globalization played a role but so did bad policy. When the Obama administration didn’t respond to China dumping below-cost solar on the US, I know many technologists who lost their job and career in the US because they couldn’t compete with companies that didn’t have to follow environmental protection rules. Americans are addicted to artificially low prices that put the burden of costs on future generations who have…

The article's point isn't that globalization (or policy) didn't play a role, it's that the premise of middle class downfall is false to begin with. See the section under the header "The American middle class was never hollowed out".

The middle class of the 1980s/1990s are the poor of today... the middle class of today are different people (and probably would have been upper class professionals in the past)

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#34

Post by FuriouslyAdrift »

MaxPock wrote: post #11

Globalization made America very very rich just that the wealth was not shared with the Americans

The finance sector and those that primarily hold capital got rich... everyone else, not so much.

Basically, we mortgaged our future for cash today.

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#35

Post by SpaceCoaster »

hparadiz wrote: post #19
micromacrofoot wrote: post #7

and re-industrialization won't save it we can't possibly compete with (much) cheaper overseas labor, tariffs will do nothing but exclude the US from this cheap labor while other countries continue to benefit from it eventually more of it will be automated anyway, and areas that saw booms from cheap labor will face similar class crises there's also this idea that maybe our standard of living needs to regress some ("2…

I recently was looking at a 4 speaker switch on monoprice. It was $20 two months ago. Now it's $40. It occurred to me that the parts in this speaker switch amounted to be $2 of raw parts. The simplest of plastic pieces with basic copper wires and metal screws. Yet they were shipping it here and forcing American consumers to pay $20 in taxes instead of possibly claiming an almost $36 profit margin by paying $2 of taxe…

US manufacturers response to 25% tariffs on washing machines was to raise their prices by exactly 25%. $80 million was collected in tariffs, $2 billion was paid by US consumers in increased prices. Increased prices caused a reduction in units sold. US manufacturers increased profits on reduced sales led them to close plants, lay people off and fund share buybacks. Chinese manufacturers avoided the tariffs by moving production to Vietnam and increasing US prices. Net result, higher prices and reduced employment.

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#36

Post by fooblaster »

I wish the author would have done the due diligence of questioning why his data might not have the full story.

- Looking at income without looking at working hours can mask the fact that working more hours looks like income growth at the expense of quality of life.

- where is this money going? Housing spending apparently has not grown, but are these same workers building equity or renting?

- what amount of income is spent on healthcare vs 50 years ago?

- Other quality of life factors? What are low income workers actually getting with their increased wages?

- Is the way with which we characterize inflation giving an incomplete picture of the experience of all income classes (the rich and the poor don't buy the same things, and prices don't shift evenly)

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#37

Post by catlover76 »

wormlord wrote: post #27
watwut wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people you talk about are consistently voting for more police state, for more social atomization and for higher cost of living. They see empathy, help to others and cooperation as negatives. Those are just facts. As for working with hands rather then pushing numbers in spreadsheet, most people do not want to work as workers in factories - that is based on surveys. That includes tradesmen.

Damn maybe if the democrats didn't kill any progressive or grassroots momentum, or ceded ground to conservatives on issues like the border (Kamala endorsing building the wall) they wouldn't have hollowed out their base of support and lost to fascists.

[dead]

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#38

Post by mrguyorama »

wormlord wrote: post #14
msandford wrote: post #8

I find this kind of article hilarious. "Numbers go up! You're not allowed to feel poor or think that there's a problem! Our number is bigger so you must be rich!" I saw this 10-20 years ago when economists were telling people that inflation is low despite their feelings about inflation. "Our math is correct and you ignorant folks should be grateful for how this economy is managed." Just because you can produce equati…

Yeah this completely ignores the fact that many people would rather work on making things with their hands that they can physically see, rather than pushing numbers around on a spreadsheet. This article ignores alienation, cost of living, social atomization, enshittification, the police state, and many other factors that contribute to everyone feeling like shit. The liberal intelligentsia need to learn that voters do…

>many people would rather work on making things with their hands that they can physically see, rather than pushing numbers around on a spreadsheet.

So why aren't they making bank in the trades? Why aren't they learning a craft? Why instead are they yelling that we should start digging coal again, an economically nonsensical thing to do? Nobody wants to buy coal, not even the people who happily buy oil and natural gas.

Welders make good money. Plumbers are essential workers who literally keep shit flowing. Parts of my family work in construction, forestry, trucking, general contracting, all classic machismo jobs that pay well for effort and experience. All essential industries. All in constant need of more workers.

The main problem seems to be that even the good "low education" jobs still require you to move to where people are. There are no jobs in dying towns because there is no economic activity in rural towns when the main income source is welfare.

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#39

Post by wormlord »

mrguyorama wrote: post #38
wormlord wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this completely ignores the fact that many people would rather work on making things with their hands that they can physically see, rather than pushing numbers around on a spreadsheet. This article ignores alienation, cost of living, social atomization, enshittification, the police state, and many other factors that contribute to everyone feeling like shit. The liberal intelligentsia need to learn that voters do…

>many people would rather work on making things with their hands that they can physically see, rather than pushing numbers around on a spreadsheet. So why aren't they making bank in the trades? Why aren't they learning a craft? Why instead are they yelling that we should start digging coal again, an economically nonsensical thing to do? Nobody wants to buy coal, not even the people who happily buy oil and natural gas…

From what I have seen, personally, the younger guys that would follow in their dad's footsteps and enter trades do not because of a few reasons:

1. Their dads tell them to go to college because trades are hard on your body. 2. For whatever reason, their kids end up really lazy. Doing drugs and trying to live life the easy way, ending up in their late 20s still living at home with their parents and not having any skills. 3. They join the trades but their coworkers are extremely toxic. Either always starting fights, being racist, shitting on apprentices. One guy told me a story of how a disgruntled coworker got kicked off a job site only to come back with his AR. Needless to say that guy has been trying to pivot into civil engineering instead of concrete work.

It's a bit of a rabbit hole to go into, but I think that the reason is that the idea of "every generation having a better life than the last" is easier said than done. Parents in the trades who want their kid to be white collar workers end up sorely disappointed when they don't give their kid any of the advantages that white collar worker parents did-- early childhood education, summer camps, SAT prep, etc. Or when their geographical location doesn't have decent white collar jobs. The kid ends up not prepared for either type of work.

If a lot of these jobs were better unionized (I know many already are), there would be no need to view them as "stepping stones" to a better life. You could have several generations all working the same trade, making good livings.

Re: Globalization did not hollow out the American middle class

#40

Post by yesfitz »

What bothers me about using GDP and Wages as a denominator or a measure of progress is that it ignores the impact of things becoming more expensive (except for inflation adjustments).

In fact, if we paid more for everything except imports, GDP would grow and it would look like we weren't importing as much. If we paid less for imports over the years, and then used them to generate a lot more money (e.g. a computer), it would look like imports were of shrinking importance.

With wages, the OECD definition of "Disposable Household Income"[2] is all income minus taxes, mandatory contributions, and interest on loans. So what isn't excluded? Rent. Childcare. Healthcare. Things that have dramatically increased in price (and also increased GDP).

We can measure everything in dollars, but that doesn't mean that the goods and services represented by those dollars are fungible.

1: Table 3 of https://www.bea.gov/sites/default/files/2025-03/gdp4q24-3rd.... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...

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