31–40 of 56 posts
IMO this kind of stuff is going to be the biggest hurdle to terra-forming someday.
uh-huh. To state that another way, some bad-ass aliens come along and decide to terraform Earth to their liking. It turns out they breathe 100% Helium, so they convert Earth's atmosphere to that. How do you feel about terra-forming now?
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Did we contaminate the moon? I think if we can can put people on Mars, we'll like that more than not contaminating Mars.
The atmosphere of Mars is over 95% CO2[1] which I imagine could support the propagation of bacteria. The Moon doesn't have much of an atmosphere at all (a trillionth of what the Earth has).[2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_the_Moon
Earlier quoted context omitted.
uh-huh. To state that another way, some bad-ass aliens come along and decide to terraform Earth to their liking. It turns out they breathe 100% Helium, so they convert Earth's atmosphere to that. How do you feel about terra-forming now?
Are you comparing killing off a whole world's worth of sentient humans with killing off some potential bacteria on Mars?
As humans, we seem to think we're the most important thing getting around. Even your comment suggests killing off humans is much worse than killing of bacteria on Mars.
Back to my story, the bad-ass aliens might very well look at us just like you're looking at the bacteria on Mars.
What's the difference? (nothing)
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you comparing killing off a whole world's worth of sentient humans with killing off some potential bacteria on Mars?
I am indeed. As humans, we seem to think we're the most important thing getting around. Even your comment suggests killing off humans is much worse than killing of bacteria on Mars. Back to my story, the bad-ass aliens might very well look at us just like you're looking at the bacteria on Mars. What's the difference? (nothing)
Turning this into an existential question for the humans does not invoke the morality you are looking for.
This form of argument only works on Earth because humans are the most important thing around, and it can be safely assumed that all human-capable things are humans and therefore you can make moral arguments based on the Golden Rule with the safe assumption that we are all working on the same basic desires. As soon as you introduce true aliens into the mix you can no longer make this assumption. You need to establish from some sort of more basic first principle why this is a bad idea.
Might I also add that from my point of view, the question is, which do you prefer, a bare sterile ecosystem barely hanging on and marking time until the sun sterilizes it, or the sort of rich vibrant ecosystem that we can build by terraforming, bringing life abundant to a place nearly sterile. Even on its own terms the snap "Don't touch anything!" is not the life friendly answer you are probably casually assuming. The ecosystem that will exist AD 100,000,000 is quite different depending on whether we terraform or not. (Again, the snap "Don't touch anything!" is itself a terra-centric viewpoint. On Earth you can assume there's a rich ecosystem pretty much where ever on the planet you point, and you can sort of leap to the conclusion that extensive human interference will at least not make it richer. In space, you can't make that assumption.)
In fact this whole thing ends up cutting to the question of exactly how do you compare two possible ecosystems and decide which is better, a question that environmentalists have to date not really had to face but is one of crucial importance even here on Earth, and completely unavoidable in space. If you're up for a challenge, try to rigorously explain why it's important that we leave a starving, barely-functional ecosystem alone for a hundred million years instead of terraforming the place and then in a hundred million years having a rich, varied Martian ecosystem.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you comparing killing off a whole world's worth of sentient humans with killing off some potential bacteria on Mars?
I am indeed. As humans, we seem to think we're the most important thing getting around. Even your comment suggests killing off humans is much worse than killing of bacteria on Mars. Back to my story, the bad-ass aliens might very well look at us just like you're looking at the bacteria on Mars. What's the difference? (nothing)
Earlier quoted context omitted.
The atmosphere of Mars is over 95% CO2[1] which I imagine could support the propagation of bacteria. The Moon doesn't have much of an atmosphere at all (a trillionth of what the Earth has).[2] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Mars [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_the_Moon
A bit of cyanobacteria[1] could theoretically thrive on Mars. All it takes is CO2, sunlight, and water. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria
The minerals they could get from soil, but without nitrogen they can't make proteins. The atmosphere of mars is 2.7% nitrogen, but I'm not convinced that that is enough for nitrogen fixation to work.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you comparing killing off a whole world's worth of sentient humans with killing off some potential bacteria on Mars?
I am indeed. As humans, we seem to think we're the most important thing getting around. Even your comment suggests killing off humans is much worse than killing of bacteria on Mars. Back to my story, the bad-ass aliens might very well look at us just like you're looking at the bacteria on Mars. What's the difference? (nothing)
That's because (according to humans) we are the most important thing getting around. No other species has the mental capacity to even consider this point, though every species acts in its own self interest.
To put it another way, do you think beavers care about disenfranchised fish or animals downstream when they build a dam and reproduce? Should they? According to you beavers should seriously consider the ramifications of their behavior. Haughty beavers...
I'm not saying we should completely disregard other species or go around destroying life needlessly, but that killing off humans is much worse than killing off bacteria, from a human perspective. Your assertion to the contrary is lunacy.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am indeed. As humans, we seem to think we're the most important thing getting around. Even your comment suggests killing off humans is much worse than killing of bacteria on Mars. Back to my story, the bad-ass aliens might very well look at us just like you're looking at the bacteria on Mars. What's the difference? (nothing)
> As humans, we seem to think we're the most important thing getting around. Even your comment suggests killing off humans is much worse than killing of bacteria on Mars. That's because (according to humans) we are the most important thing getting around. No other species has the mental capacity to even consider this point, though every species acts in its own self interest. To put it another way, do you think beaver…
Exactly. I introduced another perspective into the picture so that people can see this from a perspective other than a human one.
Just to be clear, all of you geeks out there watching the space travel develop and dreaming of a science-fiction type future where people can visit multiple planets and space travel is common? Paging Elon Musk? Guess what? There are factions that are actively moving to make sure that doesn't happen. As it turns out, many believe that we need to be so cautious that even if we could get in a rocket tomorrow and go to M…
>Guess what? There are factions that are actively moving to make sure that doesn't happen. Do you have any examples? This is interesting. Reminds me of the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.
Just to be clear, all of you geeks out there watching the space travel develop and dreaming of a science-fiction type future where people can visit multiple planets and space travel is common? Paging Elon Musk? Guess what? There are factions that are actively moving to make sure that doesn't happen. As it turns out, many believe that we need to be so cautious that even if we could get in a rocket tomorrow and go to M…
>Guess what? There are factions that are actively moving to make sure that doesn't happen. Do you have any examples? This is interesting. Reminds me of the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Trilogy
[2] http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743475186/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...