I always see articles about the decreasing cost of solar, but where are these costs collected from? Is it just not available at a consumer level? Maybe I missed the sources in the article somewhat...
The future of solar doesn't track the sun
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Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun
#32Looking at the graphs, the tracking arrays may have the added benefit of generating power in the mornings and evenings. If everyone builds non-tracking arrays, power during peak will become almost worthless if solar is a big part of overall generation capacity, so the economics might change even with panels being cheap. Of course, just building 2x as many permanently tilted panels might also work. Edit: the article a…
Yeah - you can’t talk about renewable energy generation without also considering when it is generated. Then future price of energy will be incredibly time dependent. Finding a way to generate at a different time than everyone else - whether by east/west panels or time shifting with batteries or building a different kind of renewable generation is where all the big profits will be.
Demand isn't fixed in time either, though. Industrial processes that presently run at night to use cheap power will switch to daytime when it makes sense to do so. Summer mid-day also has the highest electricity demand all year in many places due to air conditioning, so arguably solar is addressing one of the biggest stress points.
Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
anti-hail netting? you must not be from somewhere that receives a lot of hail. hail punches through solid coverings at the right size. if it's not the right size, then it's not that damaging. netting? ha! thanks for the funny visual so early in the morning.
I think a hail net would be feasible for some cases. Golf balls break solid coverings too (and windows, car roofs, etc), but we have nets for them. You want high tensile strength and some level of flexibility/elasticity to absorb the hailstone energy over a greater-than-zero distance. Or to shatter the hailstone well above the solar panel. Probably too light-blocking to leave up continuously, and maybe awkward and fa…
Anti-hail netting is definitely a thing (protecting cars or fruit trees), for the reasons you state. Even big hailstones are rather slower than fast golf balls.
Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun
#34When panels are cheap what about vertical mounting? Less susceptible to hail and snow. And maybe placed north-south, to maximize production in morning and evening when it's needed most.
North South is exactly opposite of what you need, the sun is never north
I’m pretty sure they mean that the width of the panel is north-south so faces are due east or west
Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun
#35The article fees disingenuous, flat panels collect the maximum sunlight from a given area of land and require fewer panels than the arrangement shown. Angling them helps the rain wash them and reduces the amount of mounting brackets unless you’re laying panels flat on the ground. Similarly total KW over the day isn’t why tracking mounts are so common instead it’s the increased value of electricity in the mornings and evenings so the actual economic benefits != total kWh.
However, the bit where it’s talking about increasing the angle means creating gaps between panels or the shadowing is going to offset any gains while also requiring far more panels and more land at which point you might as just angle the panels based on latitude.
Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun
#36The graphs show huge price drops over the last ten years. I wonder, how different does the price look for residential solar panel installations? Presumably the labor will start to dominate the cost if it doesn't already?
Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun
#37The graphs show huge price drops over the last ten years. I wonder, how different does the price look for residential solar panel installations? Presumably the labor will start to dominate the cost if it doesn't already?
Labor does dominate. Panels are dirt cheap and inverters, while they haven't come down in price that much, seem to still cost less than half of the price of the panels per watt.
Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a hail net would be feasible for some cases. Golf balls break solid coverings too (and windows, car roofs, etc), but we have nets for them. You want high tensile strength and some level of flexibility/elasticity to absorb the hailstone energy over a greater-than-zero distance. Or to shatter the hailstone well above the solar panel. Probably too light-blocking to leave up continuously, and maybe awkward and fa…
Anti-hail netting is definitely a thing (protecting cars or fruit trees), for the reasons you state. Even big hailstones are rather slower than fast golf balls.
Hail damage at car dealerships in my area is so expensive that the dealers have added coverings for the lots (pretty sure highly encouraged by the insurance companies), and they are most definitely not nets. Nets would have been cheaper, so that should say something about their effectiveness (or not)
Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun
#39Looking at the graphs, the tracking arrays may have the added benefit of generating power in the mornings and evenings. If everyone builds non-tracking arrays, power during peak will become almost worthless if solar is a big part of overall generation capacity, so the economics might change even with panels being cheap. Of course, just building 2x as many permanently tilted panels might also work. Edit: the article a…
but, 70% of MY! yearly households electricity consumption is literally into [PV!] hot water. Hot water tank is cheapest energy storage device on planet. and i do not have to worry to shower in noon, i can just charge my water tank during day, even when im not home. and use hot water in evening. for very little price - no need to use heat pump, resistive heater is super cheap. hot water tank can be made even DIY to lower price even more.
utility charges me so much for electricity that even tho i payed for 15 kWp roof mounted east west system literally literally ORDER OF MAGNITUDE more than prices showed in that article, AND i still save money by not buying electricity from grid !
that how much utilities are charging us, yes they need to manage all those wires, manage power plants, etc. i do understand where that cost comes from, but still, solar in residential is so cheap that installing PV on roof and directly consuming it will save you money.
So for industry/ manufacturing there will be extremely high incentive to add PV + battery even when it wont cover 100% of their loads. utility+ onsite PV+battery.
Again, back to my hot water system, 80% of year i am 100% "off-grid" for hot water [PV!]. even on days it is cloudy ! And 99%-0% of PV rest of year... And from april to October my electricity draw from grid is almost zero.
so whole residential USA can be essentially "off-grid" huge part of year with just small battery, your tv, notebooks draw almost nothing over the course of the day compared to your energy need for hot water. and less residential is on grid, easier it is to manage electricity for other sectors of economy.
this contraption from ETH Zurich can store iron/iron oxide to generate hydrogen, without storage loss! for years, without compressing hydrogen and without other cons of "standard hydrogen storage. essentially it can be thought about as hydrogen storage - it can "store" 10s of megawatts inside of a standard basement. - [https://ethz.ch/en/news-and-events/eth-news/news/2024/08/iro...]
and you do not need to make electricity from that hydrogen, you can heat your house directly with hydrogen, just by replacing 30$ burner in your existing furnace!
so you complain about "peak" power excess, and i say and i show it to you that this "peak" solar power can be used to charge that extremely cheap storage device in summer and expend that storage over winter for heating house and making hot water. when sun is not shining.
and again, calculate how much kWh is your need for heating and how much is for hot water and you can clearly see that extremely huge part of current residential energy need can be either "onsite off-grid" with this contraption + small LiFePO battery or to be on-grid and take only small loads like tv, notebooks from grid and having heating + hot water "onsite off-grid". and most importantly cheap.
ratio of kWh for your heat and for your other appliances ! ! ! !
So essentially we can charge our heating system in summer, store energy WITHOUT LOSS until winter and heat with that energy in winter. right now!
just sketch/draw for yourself timeline containing - PV + storage contraption in that link + small LiFePO battery. and you can see how huge part of energy we do not really need to draw from "grid".
small towns can even make their own shared storage, prices for SEASONAL energy storage are even lower then current prices for electricity drawn from grid....
So this physical, economical actual contemporary possibility makes me mad every time i see just another youtuber or other kind of influencer, post about just another battery technology promising who knows what, in who knows what timeframe.
we do have energy storage technologies capable of providing citizens of USA with clean energy RIGHT now, RIGHT here. for whole year, day and night. without buying one drop of oil from tyrants, dictators who literally literally kill people right at this moment.
[https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-drones-kharkiv...]
this world is so frustrating ! XD
Re: The future of solar doesn't track the sun
#40When panels are cheap what about vertical mounting? Less susceptible to hail and snow. And maybe placed north-south, to maximize production in morning and evening when it's needed most.
It’s mentioned in the article that sunlight from near the horizon passes through a lot more atmosphere, which attenuates the light so much that you might as well not bother with the panels.
That depends on your latitude, how dear land is, and how close to breakeven your application is.
For a lot of applications, panels are so goddamn cheap now and breakeven happens so fast that "Just buy twice as many panels" is the best solution to any problem that doesn't involve land area. Winter production in a snowy/leafy climate at a latitude tilt, though, is the exception to the rule; Production is so impaired without regular maintenance that twice as many panels is not very helpful. But set those panels vertical, at a range of orientations, and snow/leaves stop being an issue, you get sizable exposure with the sun low on the horizon, the maintenance requirement goes away, and you get an appreciable amount of power earlier in the morning and later in the afternoon, you just don't get quite as much at noon.