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Elon Musk Just Doesn't Understand the Sci-Fi Visions of Iain M. Banks

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Re: Elon Musk Just Doesn't Understand the Sci-Fi Visions of Iain M. Banks

#31

Post by rsynnott »

hsshhshshjk wrote: post #12
simpaticoder wrote: post #6

I'm not so sure about the author's thesis. One quote alone explains it, "it increasingly appears that humanity is a biological bootloader for digital superintelligence." If indeed Musk believes this, then his actions now matter not at all, except insofar as it either helps or harms the birth of "digital superintelligence". This is a similar "ends justify the means" argument to the "effective altruists" and the genera…

> it increasingly appears that humanity is a biological bootloader for digital superintelligence. Isn't this just a restatement of Christianity? Created by an unknowable, all powerful deity with the goal of becoming one with that deity during the rapture? Ironically, many of the alien species in Banks's novels have "sublimation" as their goal. Their idea is to transcend space and time. https://theculture.fandom.com/w…

> Isn't this just a restatement of Christianity? Created by an unknowable, all powerful deity with the goal of becoming one with that deity during the rapture?

Yeah, honestly most Nerd Religion (EA, LessWrong-style 'rationality', etc), is basically just reheated Christianity. Notably, Roko's Basilisk (you should work for the furtherance of magic robots at all costs, lest a future omnipotent magic robot torture a perfect replica of you forever for not doing so) is just a restatement of Pascal's wager, with all the attendant problems.

Re: Elon Musk Just Doesn't Understand the Sci-Fi Visions of Iain M. Banks

#32

Post by rsynnott »

jiggawatts wrote: post #5

Ironically the author of this article missed the key theme that runs throughout the Culture novels: Humans are mere pets in a world where superhuman artificial intelligence exists. Anyone that wants this future for humanity, wants to be a pet, simple as that.

This is something which comes up _in-universe_, but the general consensus amongst the AIs seems to be that it is _not_ the case, and that they are interdependent.

Re: Elon Musk Just Doesn't Understand the Sci-Fi Visions of Iain M. Banks

#33

Post by rsynnott »

aloisdg wrote: post #4
theothertimcook wrote: post #2

“If you must know, I am a utopian anarchist of the kind best described by Iain Banks,”

I guest Musk cant difference between anarchism and libertarianism

I mean he's also very much not a libertarian. He's an apparatchik of an authoritarian government. That's pretty much the opposite of being a libertarian.

(Pedantically, there's a lot of overlap between anarchists and left-libertarians, but the terms tainted enough now that no-one much really considers themselves a left-libertarian anymore.)

Re: Elon Musk Just Doesn't Understand the Sci-Fi Visions of Iain M. Banks

#35

Post by sidibe »

joshjob42 wrote: post #28
jiggawatts wrote: post #5

Ironically the author of this article missed the key theme that runs throughout the Culture novels: Humans are mere pets in a world where superhuman artificial intelligence exists. Anyone that wants this future for humanity, wants to be a pet, simple as that.

What is a pet in the relevant sense here? Let's assume you have everything in the Culture except the ASIs. So you have full blown Drexlerian nanotechnology, access to all the technology more or less possible out to the limits of physical law. Energy is functionally infinite, and if you want basically anything to be produced you simply order it from the AI equivalent of ChatGPT today and it is directly manufactured fr…

The people who view culture as a dystopia either feel like they must be working and useful and don't see a way to do that when everything is provided if they choose not to work, or (and I hope this isn't it) they want to be relatively much better off than others

I understand the first one but that's something people need to get over, it's already a part of being old or having a handicap that makes you unemployable, I think future generations will grow up without equating hard work with ethics

Re: Elon Musk Just Doesn't Understand the Sci-Fi Visions of Iain M. Banks

#36

Post by TheCoelacanth »

jiggawatts wrote: post #5

Ironically the author of this article missed the key theme that runs throughout the Culture novels: Humans are mere pets in a world where superhuman artificial intelligence exists. Anyone that wants this future for humanity, wants to be a pet, simple as that.

If Culture humans are pets of AIs, then 99% of current humans are pets of governments, corporations and other human hierarchies.

Culture Minds have far more respect for individual self-determination than any human power structure that has ever existed. I don't weep at all for the 1% of humans who lose the ability to dominate the lives of other humans. The other 99% of humans lose nothing and gain enormous freedom.

Re: Elon Musk Just Doesn't Understand the Sci-Fi Visions of Iain M. Banks

#37

Post by TheCoelacanth »

jiggawatts wrote: post #19
AlotOfReading wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's actually a scene in one of the books ( Consider Phlebas I think?) where the SC character explicitly has a hobby of mountain climbing without all the safety devices the culture has to take away fatal consequences, against the advice and wishes of the minds. There are other books too where people leave the culture (including entire worlds) and do whatever. Banks is careful to write very meaningful agency into t…

> There are other books too where people leave the culture (including entire worlds) and do whatever. The direct analogy is a pet that ran away into the forest. This is the “exception that proves the rule”.

Except that unlike a pet, Minds will do nothing to prevent you from leaving except for making staying as appealing as possible and in fact will actively facilitate you leaving if you choose to do so.

Re: Elon Musk Just Doesn't Understand the Sci-Fi Visions of Iain M. Banks

#38

Post by munksbeer »

sidibe wrote: post #35
joshjob42 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a pet in the relevant sense here? Let's assume you have everything in the Culture except the ASIs. So you have full blown Drexlerian nanotechnology, access to all the technology more or less possible out to the limits of physical law. Energy is functionally infinite, and if you want basically anything to be produced you simply order it from the AI equivalent of ChatGPT today and it is directly manufactured fr…

The people who view culture as a dystopia either feel like they must be working and useful and don't see a way to do that when everything is provided if they choose not to work, or (and I hope this isn't it) they want to be relatively much better off than others I understand the first one but that's something people need to get over, it's already a part of being old or having a handicap that makes you unemployable, I…

If (the big if) we ever reach that level of post scarcity, then it will also be possible for people who value scarcity and the meaning they derive from it to live in such a way. Simply create a new environment where labour is required, and those that prefer this can live there.

Re: Elon Musk Just Doesn't Understand the Sci-Fi Visions of Iain M. Banks

#39

Post by munksbeer »

jiggawatts wrote: post #14
0_gravitas wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling it _the_ key theme is stretching it quite a bit imo

Unlike everything else like the sex changing, it’s in every book and is a plot element instead of mere “background colour”. All of the big decisions are made by the Minds, and every time a human thinks they’re doing something of their own accord, it is implied (or explicitly stated) that they’re being manipulated by a Mind. Several of the novels state this outright, including mentioning that Marain, the language of t…

I think you're entirely wrong. I didn't read it that way at all. In fact there are humans in the culture novels who choose not to live in the typical way (eg. Genar-Hofoen one who goes to live amongst the Affront). I think they have no less agency than we do today, rather more.

Re: Elon Musk Just Doesn't Understand the Sci-Fi Visions of Iain M. Banks

#40

Post by n4r9 »

jiggawatts wrote: post #14
0_gravitas wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling it _the_ key theme is stretching it quite a bit imo

Unlike everything else like the sex changing, it’s in every book and is a plot element instead of mere “background colour”. All of the big decisions are made by the Minds, and every time a human thinks they’re doing something of their own accord, it is implied (or explicitly stated) that they’re being manipulated by a Mind. Several of the novels state this outright, including mentioning that Marain, the language of t…

> Marain, the language of the culture, was explicitly designed to “guide” the thoughts of its human speakers

I think you're overstating this. Especially considering that Marain is spoken both by humans and minds. In Banks' own words:

> Marain is a synthetic language created towards the very beginning of the Culture with the specific intention of providing a means of expression which would be a culturally inclusive and as encompassingly comprehensive in its technical and representational possibilities as practically achievable - a language, in short, that would appeal to poets, pedants, engineers and programmers alike.

https://trevor-hopkins.com/banks/a-few-notes-on-marain.html

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