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What Is Entropy?

jasonfantl.com

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Re: What Is Entropy?

#31
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. The uncertainty of the dice rolls is not controlled by you. It is the property of the loaded dice itself. Here's a better way to put it. If I roll the dice infinite times. The uncertainty of the outcome of the dice will become evident in the distribution of the outcomes of the dice. Whether you or another person is certain or uncertain of this does not indicate anything. Now when you realize this you'll sta…

I concede that my framing was explicitly Bayesian, but with that caveat, it absolutely is true: your uncertainty is a function of your knowledge, which is a model of the world, but is not equivalent to the world itself. Suppose I had a coin that only landed on heads. You don't know this and you flip the coin. According to your argument, for the first flip, your entropy about the outcome of the flip is zero. However,…

To add to this.

Both the Bayesian vs frequentist interpretations make understanding the problem challenging, as both are powerful interpretations to find the needle in the haystack, when the problem is finding the hay in the haystack.

A better lens is that a recursive binary sequence (coin flips) is an algorithmically random sequence if and only if it is a Chaitin's number.[1]

Chaitin's number is normal, which is probably easier understood with decimal digits meaning that with any window size, over time the distribution, the distribution of 0-9 will be the same.

This is why HALT ≈ open frame ≈ system identification ≈ symbol grounding problems.

Probabilities are very powerful for problems like The dining philosophers problem or the Byzantine generals problem, they are still grabbing needles every time they reach into the hay stack.

Pretty much any almost all statement is a hay in the haystack problem. For example almost all real numbers are normal, but we have only found a few.

We can construct them, say with .101010101 in base 2 .123123123123 in base 3 etc...but we can't access them.

Given access to the true reals, you have 0 percent chance of picking a computable number, rational, etc... but a 100% chance of getting a normal number or 100% chance of getting an uncomputable number.

Bayesian vs frequentist interpretations allow us to make useful predictions, but they are the map, not the territory.

Bayesian iid data and Frequentist iid random variables play the exact similar roles Enthalpy, Gibbs free energy, statistical entropy, information theory entropy, Shannon Entropy etc...

The difference between them is the independent variables that they depend on and the needs of the model they are serving.

You can also approach the property that people often want to communicate when using the term entropy as effective measure 0 sets, null cover, martingales, kolmogorov complexity, compressibility, set shattering, etc...

As a lens, null cover is most useful in my mind, as a random real number should not have any "uncommon" properties, or look more like the normal reals.

This is very different from statistical methods, or any effective usable algorithm/program, which absolutely depend on "uncommon" properties.

Which is exactly the hay in the problem of finding the hay haystack problem, hay is boring.

[1]https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~cristian/samplepapers/omegast...

Re: What Is Entropy?

#33
The problem with this explanation (and with many others) is that it misses why we should care about "disorder" or "uncertainty", whether in information theory or statistical mechanics. Yes, we have the arrow of time argument (second law of thermodynamics, etc), and entropy breaks time-symmetry. So what?

The article hints very briefly at this with the discussion of an unequally-weighted die, and how by encoding the most common outcome with a single bit, you can achieve some amount of compression. That's a start, and we've now rediscovered the idea behind Huffman coding. What information theory tells us is that if you consider a sequence of two dice rolls, you can then use even fewer bits on average to describe that outcome, and so on; as you take your block length to infinity, your average number of bits for each roll in the sequence approaches the entropy of the source. (This is Shannon's source coding theorem, and while entropy plays a far greater role in information theory, this is at least a starting point.)

There's something magical about statistical mechanics where various quantities (e.g. energy, temperature, pressure) emerge as a result of taking partial derivatives of this "partition function", and that they turn out to be the same quantities that we've known all along (up to a scaling factor -- in my stat mech class, I recall using k_B * T for temperature, such that we brought everything back to units of energy).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_function_(statistica...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_thermodynamic_rela...

If you're dealing with a sea of electrons, you might apply the Pauli exclusion principle to derive Fermi-Dirac statistics that underpins all of semiconductor physics; if instead you're dealing with photons which can occupy the same energy state, the same statistical principles lead to Bose-Einstein statistics.

Statistical mechanics is ultimately about taking certain assumptions about how particles interact with each other, scaling up the quantities beyond our ability to model all of the individual particles, and applying statistical approximations to consider the average behavior of the ensemble. The various forms of entropy are building blocks to that end.

Re: What Is Entropy?

#34

What I never fully understood is that there is some implicit assumption about the dynamics of the system. So what that there are more microstates of some macrostate as far as counting is concerned? We also have to make assumptions about the dynamics, and in particular about some property that encourages mixing.

Yes, that assumption is called the Ergodic Hypothesis, and generally justified in undergraduate statistical mechanics courses by proving and appealing to Liouville's theorem. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodic_hypothesis

It's worth noting that there's more than just ergodicity at play, although that's a fundamental requirement. For instance, applying the Pauli Exclusion Principle gives rise to Fermi-Dirac statistics.

Re: What Is Entropy?

#35
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that assumption is called the Ergodic Hypothesis, and generally justified in undergraduate statistical mechanics courses by proving and appealing to Liouville's theorem. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodic_hypothesis

It's worth noting that there's more than just ergodicity at play, although that's a fundamental requirement. For instance, applying the Pauli Exclusion Principle gives rise to Fermi-Dirac statistics.

Isn't that more about enumerating the microstates? The Pauli exclusion principle just ends up forbidding some of the microstates (forbidding a significant fraction of them if you're in the low-temperature regime).

Re: What Is Entropy?

#36
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that there's more than just ergodicity at play, although that's a fundamental requirement. For instance, applying the Pauli Exclusion Principle gives rise to Fermi-Dirac statistics.

Isn't that more about enumerating the microstates? The Pauli exclusion principle just ends up forbidding some of the microstates (forbidding a significant fraction of them if you're in the low-temperature regime).

It is about enumerating the microstates, but in a way that takes into account how the particles interact with each other (aka making assumptions about the dynamics).

If we didn't take into account any interactions, we'd be unable to do anything with statistical mechanics beyond rederiving the ideal gas law.

Re: What Is Entropy?

#37
Nitpick in the article conclusion:

>Heat flows from hot to cold because the number of ways in which the system can be non-uniform in temperature is much lower than the number of ways it can be uniform in temperature ...

Should probably say "thermal energy" instead of "temperature" if we want to be really precise with our thermodynamics terms. Temperature is not a direct measure of energy, rather it is an extensive property describing the relationship between change in energy to change in entropy.

Re: What Is Entropy?

#38
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. The uncertainty of the dice rolls is not controlled by you. It is the property of the loaded dice itself. Here's a better way to put it. If I roll the dice infinite times. The uncertainty of the outcome of the dice will become evident in the distribution of the outcomes of the dice. Whether you or another person is certain or uncertain of this does not indicate anything. Now when you realize this you'll sta…

Probability is subjective though, because macrostates are subjective. The notion of probability relies on the notion of repeatability: if you repeat a coin flip infinite times, what proportion of outcomes will be heads, etc. But if you actually repeated the toss exactly the same way every time, say with a finely-tuned coin-flipping machine in a perfectly still environment, you would always get the same result. We say…

Probability is a bunch of numbers that add to 1. Sometimes you can use this to represent subjective beliefs. Sometimes you can use it to represent objectively existing probability distributions. For example, an LLM is a probability distribution on a following token given previous tokens. If two "observers" disagree about an LLM's probability assigned to some token, then only at most one of them can be correct. So the probability is objective.

Re: What Is Entropy?

#39
post #8

One thing that helped me was the realization that, at least as used in the context of information theory, entropy is a property of an individual (typically the person receiving a message) and NOT purely of the system or message itself. > entropy quantifies uncertainty This sums it up. Uncertainty is the property of a person and not a system/message. That uncertainty is a function of both a person's model of a system/…

> If we're calculating the entropy of dice rolls (where the outcome is the 'message'), and I know the dice are loaded but you don't, my entropy will be lower than yours. That's got nothing to do with entropy being subjective. If 2 people are calculating any property and one of them is making a false assumption, they'll end up with a different (false) conclusion.

> If 2 people are calculating any property and one of them is making a false assumption, they'll end up with a different (false) conclusion.

This implies that there is an objectively true conclusion. The true probability is objective.

Re: What Is Entropy?

#40
post #8

One thing that helped me was the realization that, at least as used in the context of information theory, entropy is a property of an individual (typically the person receiving a message) and NOT purely of the system or message itself. > entropy quantifies uncertainty This sums it up. Uncertainty is the property of a person and not a system/message. That uncertainty is a function of both a person's model of a system/…

Are you basically just saying "we're not oracles"?
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