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US Marines to get high-speed, radar-evading electric seagliders for rescue ops

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Re: US Marines to get high-speed, radar-evading electric seagliders for rescue ops

#31

Post by mlyle »

icegreentea2 wrote: post #14

Ha, I love the "rescue ops". This will not primarily be for rescue ops. This will be for supporting Marine standin operations on and within the first island chain. The marines have been trying to figure out how they can handle sustainment and logistics in that environment. You can read some wonkish article about this (back in 2022) https://warontherocks.com/2022/09/sustainment-of-the-stand-i... . You'll note that the…

> This will not primarily be for rescue ops

It seems like combat SAR in the maritime environment is what these are best at.

> The "Viceroy" craft that Regent has mocked up on their website claims 180 mile range, 3500lb of cargo / 2 crew + 12 passengers.

This is like 1/4th the size needed for minimum scale sustainment and support. Not to say that it won't be used for that in a pinch or for special operations, but it's pretty limited. Of course, there's been talk about building huge ones.

Re: US Marines to get high-speed, radar-evading electric seagliders for rescue ops

#32

Post by nradov »

fidotron wrote: post #20

Ground effect vehicles could be the thing that's needed to make drone based delivery a reasonable thing to do, especially around lakes. It's one of life's perennial disappointments that such things only get done in military terms and under the ludicrous notion they are rescue vessels.

That's never going to happen. Only a tiny fraction of the population live directly on lakeshores, and basically no warehouses. If drone based delivery is going to work then they'll have to fly out of ground effect to avoid structures and trees.

The main advantage of ground effect vehicles is lower fuel consumption over long distances. That's not a priority for the short range battery powered drones used by delivery services.

Re: US Marines to get high-speed, radar-evading electric seagliders for rescue ops

#33

Post by tylerflick »

icegreentea2 wrote: post #14

Ha, I love the "rescue ops". This will not primarily be for rescue ops. This will be for supporting Marine standin operations on and within the first island chain. The marines have been trying to figure out how they can handle sustainment and logistics in that environment. You can read some wonkish article about this (back in 2022) https://warontherocks.com/2022/09/sustainment-of-the-stand-i... . You'll note that the…

I laughed when I saw the article photo combined with the headline. The Marines will be island hopping in Higgins boats again before these are adopted.

How long did it take it for the Osprey to make it into service?

Re: US Marines to get high-speed, radar-evading electric seagliders for rescue ops

#34

Post by financetechbro »

nimbius wrote: post #24

>high speed these are prop aircraft. >radar evading except for that insane heat signature coming from the half dozen DC motors and the RF emissions from them. >electric unless teslas making it...probably not... this sounds like a pork project...or PR fluff.

Because Tesla is the only company capable of making electric vehicles…?

Re: US Marines to get high-speed, radar-evading electric seagliders for rescue ops

#35

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

acc_297 wrote: post #19

From the wiki I take it they have yet to build and fly a full-sized prototype "A 1/4 scale model was successfully demonstrated in 2022 in Narragansett Bay"[1] Also I assume radar-proof is just because it's a ground effect vehicle that will never fly high enough to show up on radar it certainly doesn't look all angular like a stealth bomber. In which case my bicycle is also radar-proof? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

> Also I assume radar-proof is just because it's a ground effect vehicle that will never fly high enough to show up on radar

My guess is yes. Simply because the Caspian Sea Monster [1] was "the largest and heaviest aircraft in the world from 1966 to 1988", not at all stealthy looking, and simultaneously also "undetectable to many radar systems, as it flew below the minimum altitude of detection."

So yes, a much smaller craft will also be hard to radar. Notwithstanding that the tech has moved on at both the "detect" and "don't be detected" ends of the contest.

As I understand it, it's also easier and safer to fly these craft now, as they are computer-stabilised, which the 1960s design could not have been. And therefore easier and safer to fly them lower. (The Caspian Sea Monster "was destroyed following a crash caused by pilot error." )

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea_Monster

Re: US Marines to get high-speed, radar-evading electric seagliders for rescue ops

#36

Post by vonmoltke »

acc_297 wrote: post #19

From the wiki I take it they have yet to build and fly a full-sized prototype "A 1/4 scale model was successfully demonstrated in 2022 in Narragansett Bay"[1] Also I assume radar-proof is just because it's a ground effect vehicle that will never fly high enough to show up on radar it certainly doesn't look all angular like a stealth bomber. In which case my bicycle is also radar-proof? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

> Also I assume radar-proof is just because it's a ground effect vehicle that will never fly high enough to show up on radar it certainly doesn't look all angular like a stealth bomber. In which case my bicycle is also radar-proof?

From the way the article is worded, it does seem the author is only considering air search radar with this claim. Without low observability features, this will show up on surface search and surveillance radars. There might be an initial period where some radars fail to register it because they reject it as a possible target due to its kinematics. If craft like this become common, though, the signal processing algorithms will be updated to handle them. Most can already deal with very low-flying helicopters anyway.

That said, just because it isn't angular doesn't mean it doesn't have low observability features. Radar absorbing material would still make it harder to detect. So would more subtle elements of the physical design. I don't think "radar-proof" in that section header is justified, though.

Re: US Marines to get high-speed, radar-evading electric seagliders for rescue ops

#37

Post by icegreentea2 »

mlyle wrote: post #31
icegreentea2 wrote: post #14

Ha, I love the "rescue ops". This will not primarily be for rescue ops. This will be for supporting Marine standin operations on and within the first island chain. The marines have been trying to figure out how they can handle sustainment and logistics in that environment. You can read some wonkish article about this (back in 2022) https://warontherocks.com/2022/09/sustainment-of-the-stand-i... . You'll note that the…

> This will not primarily be for rescue ops It seems like combat SAR in the maritime environment is what these are best at. > The "Viceroy" craft that Regent has mocked up on their website claims 180 mile range, 3500lb of cargo / 2 crew + 12 passengers. This is like 1/4th the size needed for minimum scale sustainment and support. Not to say that it won't be used for that in a pinch or for special operations, but it's…

The company press release states "The second phase of work will examine seaglider capabilities across missions including contested logistics and medevac/casevac".

I agree that this would be useful for medevac/casevac, but I'm less sure about the search part of SAR. 180 miles is not a lot of range for searching.

I still believe this is primarily about contested logistics, because the USMC still hasn't solved that issue. One of the stand in force concept's biggest weakness right now is how will the marines go about sustaining the force. There's a lot of good ideas written down, but concretely they still don't have good solutions.

I think it's fairly clear that the Marines will look to unnamed undersea vehicles as one vector, but I think they're looking for flexibility and redundancy (and certainly the speed that these guys offer would be interesting).

What's written about SIFs is that the Marines anticipate the majority of SIFs to be deployed in the crisis building phase. They do not envision on day one of a shooting war, somehow dispersing all of their forces across the first island chain - they take for granted that they will somehow do that in the build up. After that, then ya, maybe just med/casevac and resupply is what they're after.

I have a hard time finding concrete examples, but I always envisioned an example detachment being roughly platoon sized. Basically, imagine being able to man a NMESIS launcher or two, ISR, and a squad or two of infantry for security. I think at that point, these vehicles become more viable for certain types of sustainment. You could for example priority rush more NSMs to a detachment.

Re: US Marines to get high-speed, radar-evading electric seagliders for rescue ops

#38

Post by mikeyouse »

tylerflick wrote: post #33
icegreentea2 wrote: post #14

Ha, I love the "rescue ops". This will not primarily be for rescue ops. This will be for supporting Marine standin operations on and within the first island chain. The marines have been trying to figure out how they can handle sustainment and logistics in that environment. You can read some wonkish article about this (back in 2022) https://warontherocks.com/2022/09/sustainment-of-the-stand-i... . You'll note that the…

I laughed when I saw the article photo combined with the headline. The Marines will be island hopping in Higgins boats again before these are adopted. How long did it take it for the Osprey to make it into service?

> How long did it take it for the Osprey to make it into service?

I was curious so I went and looked;

1981 - Initial development contract awarded

1983 - Bell/Boeing submitted their prototype and since it was the only submission, they were awarded the contract

1985 - Osprey designation established, first full size prototypes under development

1988 - First Osprey was finished

1989 - First testing of the prototypes started and first flight in helicopter mode (several of the prototypes crashed)

1994 - Bell/Boeing received production contract for EMD phase

1997 - First EMD flight + more testing

2005 - Full rate production authorized

2007 - Marines began fielding them

They were still testing the various modes (carrier onboard deliveries, etc) into the 2020s but the most favorable case is that it took over 25 years from prototype to service.

Re: US Marines to get high-speed, radar-evading electric seagliders for rescue ops

#39

Post by dylan604 »

tylerflick wrote: post #33
icegreentea2 wrote: post #14

Ha, I love the "rescue ops". This will not primarily be for rescue ops. This will be for supporting Marine standin operations on and within the first island chain. The marines have been trying to figure out how they can handle sustainment and logistics in that environment. You can read some wonkish article about this (back in 2022) https://warontherocks.com/2022/09/sustainment-of-the-stand-i... . You'll note that the…

I laughed when I saw the article photo combined with the headline. The Marines will be island hopping in Higgins boats again before these are adopted. How long did it take it for the Osprey to make it into service?

These are nothing like the Osprey. The Osprey is way more complex. If one of the engines goes out on the Osprey, there is linkage that will allow the remaining engine to continue to power both rotors. Nevermind the mission profiles are completely different.

How long did the SR-71 take to make it into service? How long did the F-22 or F-35 take? None of those answers have anything to do with the other.

Re: US Marines to get high-speed, radar-evading electric seagliders for rescue ops

#40

Post by meigwilym »

icegreentea2 wrote: post #14

Ha, I love the "rescue ops". This will not primarily be for rescue ops. This will be for supporting Marine standin operations on and within the first island chain. The marines have been trying to figure out how they can handle sustainment and logistics in that environment. You can read some wonkish article about this (back in 2022) https://warontherocks.com/2022/09/sustainment-of-the-stand-i... . You'll note that the…

> This will not primarily be for rescue ops.

The "radar-evading" rather gives the game away.

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