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X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

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Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#32

Post by callumjones »

I'm not sure what the problem is here, especially given this is a consumer OS targeted at the masses but still its underpinnings means it can scale out to the niche when required.

And this is exactly the case with X11, it doesn't exist on OS X 10.8 by default but luckily the OS tells me Apple have an open source version ready for me to download when I need it.

This seems like the best of both worlds, an average computer user isn't bogged down by niche software shipped with their computer and the developer can easily hop onto MacForge and extend the functionality of their computer. Heck you can even compile things since it's just BSD/Mach underneath.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#33

Post by Someone »

I have a X11.app in /Applications/Utilities. When launched, it shows a dialog:

  An application has requested access to X11.
  Would you like to install X11 now?

  X11 is no longer included with OS X. Apple continues to support
  the development of X11 on OS X with the open source community.
  Clicking “Continue” will take you to an Apple Knowledge Base Article
  which provides information about installing X11.

                                                 [ Cancel ]  [ Continue ]
So, I think that "and giving me this when I search their knowledge base for answers" is a bit dishonest. At least on my system, searching wasn't necessary. Apple pointed me there.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#34

Post by keithpeter »

vvhn wrote: post #15

interestingly, X11 is part of the "open sourced" part ( almost all of the UNIX underpinnings ) of OS X. Can you change what goes into the distribution CD provided by ubuntu ?

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization

Sort of. I've never done this myself.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#36

Post by bradleyland »

leephillips wrote: post #17
bradleyland wrote: post #14

The trend only appears disturbing if you few it from a very, very high level. Apple didn't do the best job of keeping up with some OSS components included in OS X. X11 is a great example of such a component. Outside of OS X, lots of changes were occurring with X windows servers. By including X11 (or even providing their own package), Apple was actually in the way. XQuartz dates back to 2007. There were five releases…

That's a good argument for Apple not including their own version of x11. But the author was most anguished that they removed an installation of x11 that he was depending on.

Speaking of anguish, simply leaving a non-supported version of X11 installed on future releases of the OS wouldn't be a terribly good idea either. X is a pretty big dependency. If the entire Mac user body moves to XQuartz, it's best for that to happen quickly.

Apple has a well established history of quickly (some might say ruthlessly) depreciating and moving OS components and APIs forward. The upside of this is that developers don't have to experience the anguish associated with supporting several versions of sub-system for long. OS upgrades for the Mac are cheap and easy, so users tend to run closer to the front line. This is especially true for developers.

The downside is that you're frequently caught off guard. The change from Apple X11 to XQuartz is, definitively, a yak shaving exercise. Bleh.

The approach isn't without trade-offs. In other words, I try not to don my rose colored glasses prematurely, but I've spent enough time on all the major platforms to recognize that there are many advantages to the approach Apple uses here.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#38

Post by jwbaker »

xutopia wrote: post #24

What I find disturbing here is the expectation that they would include it. I was speaking to a Microsoft evangelist two years ago and asked him why it took them so long to release a new version of Windows. He essentially told me that Microsoft does the best legacy support in the world and wanted to ensure that every single piece of important software could still be installed and work with the new version. He also exp…

That certainly does not justify the installer removing X11 from a perfectly working Mac.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#39

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

I wonder if Apple risks losing its technical (i.e. programmer) users. If OS X stops feeling like a UNIX-like OS to technical users, and they move away, OS X may receive less attention from developers. And that won't be good for the platform.

Re: X11 and the disturbing trend of Apple removing functionality from OS X

#40

Post by jwbaker »

michael_miller wrote: post #28

This is a very rational decision for Apple to make. 99% of their customers don't even know what X11 is, yet most of them will be downloading Mountain Lion from the Mac App Store. Not bundling X11 saves most users 70MB of unnecessary download.

It's been some time since Apple shipped the X11 package by default. You've had to download it yourself. They're not saving anything by removing it from people's computers
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