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Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

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Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By all means send me the regulations for rebate and some concrete information, I'm open to being convinced otherwise by facts.

YOU make the claim, YOU bring sources. Your claim (or the claim you support): "Falsifying sales records to receive rebates is criminal fraud, regardless of how nicely you do so." You don't have any sources to back it up, so it can be dismissed outright.

My source is the original article

The Canadian Automobile Dealers Association has urged Transport Canada to investigate, citing potential misuse of the rebate system. Attempts to reach Tesla for comment have gone unanswered.

The federal EV rebate program, facilitating over 500,000 electric vehicle purchases since its inception, was paused on January 13, 72 hours after the government signaled its potential suspension. Officials are now reviewing the Tesla sales data to determine if any irregularities occurred during the program’s final days.

A simple search yields https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-techn... for citations of program overview.

- "Individuals are eligible for one incentive"

- "Organizations and businesses are eligible for up to 10 incentives. Organizations and businesses that share common ownership, other than common ownership as a result of being a publicly traded company, are considered as one single organization eligible for a combined total of 10"

- "The incentive will be applied at the point-of-sale by the dealership once they have confirmed your eligibility"

The story is that Tesla sold as many cars, at four dealers in three days, almost as many as they sold in Canada in all of Q1 2024 at a time when their Canadian sales are trending down.

There are 1440 minutes in a day, they sold 8600 cars. Assuming a 12 hour dealer workday at 4 dealers. Articles say 2 cars a minute, I get one car per minute. It still they correctly process the incentives at point of sale or delivery? The investigating will find out.

The fraud also might be if anyone bought their own vehicles to sell later, or are otherwise violate the 10 rebates per organization limit and attempted to hide this.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YOU make the claim, YOU bring sources. Your claim (or the claim you support): "Falsifying sales records to receive rebates is criminal fraud, regardless of how nicely you do so." You don't have any sources to back it up, so it can be dismissed outright.

My source is the original article The Canadian Automobile Dealers Association has urged Transport Canada to investigate, citing potential misuse of the rebate system. Attempts to reach Tesla for comment have gone unanswered. The federal EV rebate program, facilitating over 500,000 electric vehicle purchases since its inception, was paused on January 13, 72 hours after the government signaled its potential suspension.…

>My source is the original article

>The Canadian Automobile Dealers Association has urged Transport Canada to investigate, citing potential misuse of the rebate system. Attempts to reach Tesla for comment have gone unanswered.

Your source and the primary source provides no proof of the supposed fraud, it simply lists quotes from pissed off competitors that didn't sell as many vehicles as Tesla, and therefore were not able to collecte the rebate.

>A simple search yields https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-techn... for citations of program overview.

>- "Individuals are eligible for one incentive"

>- "Organizations and businesses are eligible for up to 10 incentives. Organizations and businesses that share common ownership, other than common ownership as a result of being a publicly traded company, are considered as one single organization eligible for a combined total of 10"

Yes, individuals and companies qualify and the instant point of sale rebate is applied to the sale price after taxes and fees. The dealerships are not entitled the rebate on a per car sold basis, only the individuals are.

>The story is that Tesla sold as many cars, at four dealers in three days, almost as many as they sold in Canada in all of Q1 2024 at a time when their Canadian sales are trending down.

Tesla does not sell cars at dealerships. All online orders in huge areas 150 kilometers wide get tagged to these show rooms even though you cannot purchase there.

>There are 1440 minutes in a day, they sold 8600 cars. Assuming a 12 hour dealer workday at 4 dealers. Articles say 2 cars a minute, I get one car per minute. It still they correctly process the incentives at point of sale or delivery? The investigating will find out.

Four dealers doing online sales for large swaths of provinces. These "dealerships" do not have sales staff nor do they actually deliver vehicles many of the times, even though they're double as the "dealership of delivery."

>The fraud also might be if anyone bought their own vehicles to sell later, or are otherwise violate the 10 rebates per organization limit and attempted to hide this.

This wouldn't be Tesla committing the fraud then.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#33
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not fraud. Tesla does not sell vehicles at their "dealerships." Tesla is 100% online orders, you are not able to place an order at their showrooms with the staff. The showrooms double as delivery centers for entire regions. 30 cars per hour across a 100 mile radius as the EV subsidy is expiring is not thst hard to do. Tesla does not collect the subsidies, the owners do. This is only "suspicious" because it's…

> > > Did they just funnel and move cars through the Canada based dealerships that were for sales in other parts of the world? > > Even then it would likely still be some variety of fraud > This is not fraud. The scenario they brought up of misrepresenting non-Canadian buyers as Canadians in order to take rebates from the Canadian government would absolutely be fraud. As for your "online orders" thing, I've replied i…

>The scenario they brought up of misrepresenting non-Canadian buyers as Canadians in order to take rebates from the Canadian government would absolutely be fraud.

Glad this delusional invented scenario is not what happened.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#34
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla does not sell vehicles at their "dealerships." Tesla is 100% online orders, you are not able to place an order at their showrooms with the staff. The showrooms double as delivery centers for entire regions. 30 cars per hour across a 100 mile radius as the EV subsidy is expiring is not impossible. Tesla does not collect the subsidies, the owners do. This is only "suspicious" because it's fake news.

Dude, "LOL online orders exist" is not the slam-dunk you think it is here. First, that single weekend's 8.6k sales (if the timestamps are to be believed) are than Tesla's Canada sales for the entire prior month (Dec 2024) as well as exceeding the total for any month in 2024. Second, even a mob of frenzied Canadians car-buyers would probably fall more-evenly across different sellers, and across more days of the month,…

>Dude, "LOL online orders exist" is not the slam-dunk you think it is here.

Dude, "LOL online orders exist" is absolutely the slam-dunk I think it is here.

>First, that single weekend's 8.6k sales (if the timestamps are to be believed) are than Tesla's Canada sales for the entire prior month (Dec 2024) as well as exceeding the total for any month in 2024.

Yes, happens when the government announces they're going to take $5,000 away in a few days.

>Second, even a mob of frenzied Canadians car-buyers would probably fall more-evenly across different sellers, and across more days of the month, rather than being so unusually-concentrated.

Wrong:

Tesla clearly outpased the competition, Model Y selling double what the second place competition was.

https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-model-y-leads-canadas...

Tesla was selling double of what the competition was in the same rebate program less than a year ago.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-dominates-canada-izev-rebate...

The frenzy was due to the government ending the rebate program.

>Finally, remember that the incentive program was already slated to end within another month or two, not a year later or whatever.

You missed it, they made another announcement that it was ending within days. That caused a frenzy.

>This places limits on how big we can expect the crowd of procrastinating car-buyers to be, especially since for most people cars are not impulse-buys.

Once the end of the program was announced, the buying commenced.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The iZEV rebate is paid to the the point of sale who in turn is supposed to knock that price down for the owner. So it is a 'dealer' in that Tesla itself is the dealership. No, the rebate is paid at point of sale to the purchaser of said vehicle, not to the dealership, and not to Tesla. >So yes it is suspicious. So it is not suspicious. >Especially considering that the Model Y starts much more expensive then it's co…

>No, the rebate is paid at point of sale to the purchaser of said vehicle, not to the dealership, and not to Tesla. https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-techn... ========================================= To get reimbursed: Log into the ZEV application, select the selling dealership, and go to the “I want to view all iZEV requests submitted for this dealership/authorized seller.” Then search the Serv…

>Straight from the horses mouth; the dealership is reimbursed.

It is paid to the buyer, but collected by the dealership. Buyers are those who qualify to receive it. Straight from the horse's mouth:

"There is a limit to how many incentives Canadians and Canadian organizations can receive for the purchase or lease of eligible vehicles under the iZEV Program, in a calendar year: Individuals are eligible for one incentive"

"Individuals are eligible", not dealerships. Dealerships collect the reimbursement, but the individuals must qualify. If you qualify and he dealer didn't discount the car, they owe you the rebate:

"If you didn't receive the incentive on an eligible ZEV purchased or leased on or after the date listed on the eligibility vehicle list, please contact the dealership to verify if they are enrolled in the Program. If they are enrolled, they may reimburse you the maximum eligible incentive amount (this is usually reimbursed by cheque)."

https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-techn...

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No, the rebate is paid at point of sale to the purchaser of said vehicle, not to the dealership, and not to Tesla. https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-techn... ========================================= To get reimbursed: Log into the ZEV application, select the selling dealership, and go to the “I want to view all iZEV requests submitted for this dealership/authorized seller.” Then search the Serv…

>Straight from the horses mouth; the dealership is reimbursed. It is paid to the buyer, but collected by the dealership. Buyers are those who qualify to receive it. Straight from the horse's mouth: "There is a limit to how many incentives Canadians and Canadian organizations can receive for the purchase or lease of eligible vehicles under the iZEV Program, in a calendar year: Individuals are eligible for one incentiv…

I'm impressed you came back to this old thread!

No matter how hard you try to rationalize it, 1,200 sales in one day at a single dealer just as the dealers become aware that the program is about to run through its' funds is suspicious.

Doubly so with a company whose lawyers argue in court you can't believe what their CEO says, that holds onto deposits for 7 years for a "coming-soon-car", and whose cars never surprises to the upside on mileage.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No, the rebate is paid at point of sale to the purchaser of said vehicle, not to the dealership, and not to Tesla. https://tc.canada.ca/en/road-transportation/innovative-techn... ========================================= To get reimbursed: Log into the ZEV application, select the selling dealership, and go to the “I want to view all iZEV requests submitted for this dealership/authorized seller.” Then search the Serv…

>Straight from the horses mouth; the dealership is reimbursed. It is paid to the buyer, but collected by the dealership. Buyers are those who qualify to receive it. Straight from the horse's mouth: "There is a limit to how many incentives Canadians and Canadian organizations can receive for the purchase or lease of eligible vehicles under the iZEV Program, in a calendar year: Individuals are eligible for one incentiv…

>"Individuals are eligible", not dealerships. Dealerships collect the reimbursement, but the individuals must qualify. If you qualify and he dealer didn't discount the car, they owe you the rebate:

A difference without distinction. From the financial point of view, the cheque goes from the Government of Canada to the dealership. Whether the dealership then cuts another cheque or simply discounts the vehicle $5000 is irrelevant because in either case the money has to enter the dealership's coffers.

Now AFAIK adding in the rebate directly as a discount into the bill of sale is the modus operandi of Tesla and other dealerships in Canada that were participating in the iZEV. And that's why I don't think it's impossible that this is legitimate.

If Tesla sold inventory for the previous years and applied the discounts on the bills of sale, but then didn't get around to filing the paperwork until now near the end of the rebate... well that would explain why the sudden rush to get the paperwork done when the pause was announced. Other dealerships were doing something similar and are now out of pocket for their procrastination.

Now it's a little odd to me why a company as tech savvy as Tesla wouldn't have automated the filling of the forms. But I could see that just being due to to mismanagement and potentially also why the store managers refused to comment to CTVNews when they came asking about it.

The idea that people were rushing out to Tesla's website to buy isn't impossible either but Tesla's never been shy about bragging about good sales performance. The fact that the storage lots near the Toronto or Montreal are also quite full doesn't exactly help sell that story either.

Now it's also possible that this is borderline fraud. It's only $330 to establish a numbered company in Ontario, so hypothetically if someone had $3 million or so to create 8600 numbered companies, those holding companies could in 'buy' a Tesla that qualifies under the iZEV for a $5000 reimbursement. Technically that is not illegal on it's own, and money doesn't have to flow anywhere. And actual buyers would still be buying a new car.

It's also possible that it's just outright fraud and Tesla just submitted forms for sales that never happened. There's nothing on the Transport Canada forms that require only a name of the purchaser and then a make, model, and year of the vehicle, so it'd be trivial to just put falsified information into the forms.

Whatever the reality is, it's still suspicious, and bears further scrutiny. Especially given how politically delicate government funds flowing to Tesla is right now.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Straight from the horses mouth; the dealership is reimbursed. It is paid to the buyer, but collected by the dealership. Buyers are those who qualify to receive it. Straight from the horse's mouth: "There is a limit to how many incentives Canadians and Canadian organizations can receive for the purchase or lease of eligible vehicles under the iZEV Program, in a calendar year: Individuals are eligible for one incentiv…

I'm impressed you came back to this old thread! No matter how hard you try to rationalize it, 1,200 sales in one day at a single dealer just as the dealers become aware that the program is about to run through its' funds is suspicious. Doubly so with a company whose lawyers argue in court you can't believe what their CEO says, that holds onto deposits for 7 years for a "coming-soon-car", and whose cars never surprise…

>I'm impressed you came back to this old thread!

Had to stamp out the fake news with reality.

>No matter how hard you try to rationalize it, 1,200 sales in one day at a single dealer just as the dealers become aware that the program is about to run through its' funds is suspicious.

Facts and reality don't require rationalization. It's only suspicious if you get your news from reddit. Dealers don't qualify for the rebate, buyers do. The Canadian government announced to everyone the program was ending. It hit the news.

>Doubly so with a company whose lawyers argue in court you can't believe what their CEO says

Did you get this fake news from reddit perhaps?

>that holds onto deposits for 7 years for a "coming-soon-car

Customers can get they deposits back at any time they please.

>whose cars never surprises to the upside on mileage.

LLM hallucination?

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Straight from the horses mouth; the dealership is reimbursed. It is paid to the buyer, but collected by the dealership. Buyers are those who qualify to receive it. Straight from the horse's mouth: "There is a limit to how many incentives Canadians and Canadian organizations can receive for the purchase or lease of eligible vehicles under the iZEV Program, in a calendar year: Individuals are eligible for one incentiv…

>"Individuals are eligible", not dealerships. Dealerships collect the reimbursement, but the individuals must qualify. If you qualify and he dealer didn't discount the car, they owe you the rebate: A difference without distinction. From the financial point of view, the cheque goes from the Government of Canada to the dealership. Whether the dealership then cuts another cheque or simply discounts the vehicle $5000 is…

>A difference without distinction. From the financial point of view, the cheque goes from the Government of Canada to the dealership. Whether the dealership then cuts another cheque or simply discounts the vehicle $5000 is irrelevant because in either case the money has to enter the dealership's coffers.

It's a huge difference. Dealerships cannot just make a claim and collect the money. It's not theirs, even though they collect it.

Re: Suspicious Tesla Sales Surge Triggers Canadian Government Investigation

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Individuals are eligible", not dealerships. Dealerships collect the reimbursement, but the individuals must qualify. If you qualify and he dealer didn't discount the car, they owe you the rebate: A difference without distinction. From the financial point of view, the cheque goes from the Government of Canada to the dealership. Whether the dealership then cuts another cheque or simply discounts the vehicle $5000 is…

>A difference without distinction. From the financial point of view, the cheque goes from the Government of Canada to the dealership. Whether the dealership then cuts another cheque or simply discounts the vehicle $5000 is irrelevant because in either case the money has to enter the dealership's coffers. It's a huge difference. Dealerships cannot just make a claim and collect the money. It's not theirs, even though t…

No it's not. I'm not talking about eligibility, that has nothing to do with how the cash flows, because the implication that you were making right at the front was that money goes straight from the government to the buyer. Which is absolutely not the case, Tesla has to file the paperwork and Transport Canadas pays out to Tesla. After that, TC doesn't have any say in where the money goes (also why TC can do this investigation now; they haven't released the money yet to Tesla).

Plus right now that's what Tesla's is one of the more believable scenarios I mentioned: : https://electrek.co/2025/04/09/tesla-canada-says-its-shady-4...

That they were rushing to fill out a backlog from sales from previous months. Not a massive rush of sales.

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