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Comparing Fuchsia components and Linux containers [video]

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Re: Comparing Fuchsia components and Linux containers [video]

#31

Post by ferfumarma »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #7
thornjm wrote: post #2

Would appreciate anyone summarising the key differences here as I can't watch the video at the moment.

It seems like Fuchsia components have less that they can assume about their environment and require the caller to be more explicit about what the component can do ("capabilities"). So for instance a docker container might just decide--without the user's say-so--that it wants to write a debug log file to /foo/bar/baz and then it would be up to the user to go find that file if they care. By contrast a Fuchsia component…

It's a lot like sandstorm; the web hosting platform that Kenon Varda created. It failed as a corporation, but is still open source. It's a shame: it was before it's time and still holds up incredibly well.

Re: Comparing Fuchsia components and Linux containers [video]

#33

Post by andrekandre »

dekhn wrote: post #18
alex-mohr wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I could tell, its main goal was to have fun writing an OS. At that, it seems to have succeeded for a number of the people involved? In terms of impact or business case, I'm missing what the end goal for the company or execs involved is. It's not re-writing user-space components of AOSP, because that's all Java or Kotlin. Maybe it's a super-longterm super-expensive effort to replace Linux underlying Android…

When I worked at $GOOG my manager left the team to work on Fuchsia and he described it as a "senior engineer retention project", but also the idea was to come up with a kernel that had a stable interface so that vendors could update their hardware more easily compared to linux. Many things that google did when I was there was simply to have a hedge, if the time/opportunity arose, against other technologies. For examp…

  > the idea was to come up with a kernel that had a stable interface so that vendors could update their hardware more easily
interesting... if that was a big goal, i wonder why they didn't go with some kind of adapter/meta-driver (and just maintain that) to the kernel that has a stable interface.

maybe long-term not viable i guess...?

Re: Comparing Fuchsia components and Linux containers [video]

#34

Post by surajrmal »

dekhn wrote: post #26
bestorworse wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The joy of having a properly implemented capability system is that, well, you can create arbitrary capabilities. You don't need to give a process/component the “unrestricted network access capability” -- you could give it a capability to eg “have https access to this (sub)domain only” where the process wouldn't be able to change stuff like SSL certificates. EDIT: and to be clear, fuchsia implements capabilities very…

In my experience lots of folks simply won't work with capability systems no matter how good the implementation is or whatever level of security and configuration granularity is provided. For many people it's just extra friction in search of a use case.

It makes testing a lot easier honestly. Also keep in mind that mobile apps and web apps are fairly capability oriented these days, so I wouldn't say no one will work with it...

Re: Comparing Fuchsia components and Linux containers [video]

#35

Post by refulgentis »

mdhb wrote: post #9
bobajeff wrote: post #5

I'm surprised this is still being worked on I was under the impression that Google abandoned this. Also, I would be interested to see a comparison to the wasm component model as it also seems to want to do the same things docker containers do.

I think the lack of public information about their future plans for the project combined with the “killed by Google” meme got smashed together here and that is actually a really common perception but also one that is completely made up out of thin air. It has been under heavy heavy development for many years now. The fact that they are now starting to talk about it publicly now is probably a sign that they are lookin…

This is a potpourri of stuff over 7 years, sprinkled on a base of confirmation bias re: the common wisdom has a "perception...completely made up out of thin air", and a misunderstanding that speaking publicly in this individual talk represents a step change or something new.

I would bet, very, very, many dollars it is not coming to Android in any form, Starnix isn't coming soon if ever, and they're not looking to move beyond IoT. Long story short, it shipped on the Nest Hub, didn't get a great rep, and Nest Hubs haven't been touched in years because they're not exactly a profit center.

Meanwhile, observe Pixel Tablet release in smart display factor, Chrome OS being merged with Android, and the software-minded VP who championed the need for the project, moving on, replaced by the hardware VP.

When you mash all that together, what you get is: the future is Android. Or, there is no future. Depending on how you look at it.

(disclaimer: former Googler on Pixel team, all derivable from open source info. I wish it wasn't the case, but it is :/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/01/big-layoffs-at-googl... https://9to5google.com/2023/07/25/google-abandons-assistant-... https://9to5google.com/2024/11/18/chrome-os-migrating-androi..., note 7d views on starnix bugs, all 1 or 0, with the exception of a 7 and 4 https://issues.fuchsia.dev/issues?q=status:open%20componenti...)

Re: Comparing Fuchsia components and Linux containers [video]

#36

Post by tmp-fuchsia »

I haven’t watched this talk, but I worked on Fuchsia from the start (I’m no longer at Google) and want to clear up some common questions and misconceptions:

1. Fuchsia is a general-purpose operating system built to support Google’s consumer hardware.

2. It’s not designed to compete with or replace Android. Its goal is to replace Linux, which Android is built on. One big challenge it addresses is Linux’s driver problem. If Fuchsia succeeds, Android apps could run on it.

Fuchsia isn’t trying to replace Android. Its survival for over a decade—through layoffs and with hundreds still working on it—says a lot.

I can’t predict Fuchsia’s future, but it’s already running on millions of devices. The git logs show big strides in running Linux programs on Fuchsia without recompilation, as well as progress on the Android runtime. The best way to predict Fuchsia’s future is to look at its hardware architecture support and which runtime is getting attention.

Fuchsia’s success will likely depend more on market forces than on technical innovation. Linux is “good enough” for most needs, and its issues may not justify switching. The choice between sticking with Linux or moving to Fuchsia often favors Linux.

Still, I hope Fuchsia succeeds.

Re: Comparing Fuchsia components and Linux containers [video]

#37

Post by jeffbee »

intexpress wrote: post #23
bobajeff wrote: post #5

I'm surprised this is still being worked on I was under the impression that Google abandoned this. Also, I would be interested to see a comparison to the wasm component model as it also seems to want to do the same things docker containers do.

Fuchsia has been on life support for a few years now, but not completely dead yet

There were 25 changes updated on the Fuchsia Gerrit in the last 15 minutes. It is much less dead than 99% of open source software projects.

Re: Comparing Fuchsia components and Linux containers [video]

#38

Post by clhodapp »

refulgentis wrote: post #35
mdhb wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the lack of public information about their future plans for the project combined with the “killed by Google” meme got smashed together here and that is actually a really common perception but also one that is completely made up out of thin air. It has been under heavy heavy development for many years now. The fact that they are now starting to talk about it publicly now is probably a sign that they are lookin…

This is a potpourri of stuff over 7 years, sprinkled on a base of confirmation bias re: the common wisdom has a "perception...completely made up out of thin air", and a misunderstanding that speaking publicly in this individual talk represents a step change or something new. I would bet, very, very, many dollars it is not coming to Android in any form, Starnix isn't coming soon if ever, and they're not looking to mov…

Personally, as an outsider, losing what ChromeOS was becoming (Google's spin on desktop Linux) is the saddest part of this for me.

Re: Comparing Fuchsia components and Linux containers [video]

#39

Post by fishtoucher »

mdhb wrote: post #9
bobajeff wrote: post #5

I'm surprised this is still being worked on I was under the impression that Google abandoned this. Also, I would be interested to see a comparison to the wasm component model as it also seems to want to do the same things docker containers do.

I think the lack of public information about their future plans for the project combined with the “killed by Google” meme got smashed together here and that is actually a really common perception but also one that is completely made up out of thin air. It has been under heavy heavy development for many years now. The fact that they are now starting to talk about it publicly now is probably a sign that they are lookin…

Fuchsia may not be outright dead, but it's definitely on life support and would've been killed a long time ago if senior people at Google weren't personally backing it. It had great foundations but without a concrete use case or product development was constantly pulled in different directions. It seemed like every year a new niche for Fuchsia was on the horizon, 6 months of development time would be dedicated to it, an extremely hacky demo would get the public hyped up, and then the whole thing would be abandoned because it didn't make any business sense. Starnix, for example, has been completely deprecated. There was even a newer system to replace it which also got cancelled.

* My knowledge is a couple years old at this point and I haven't kept up with recent developments so maybe the future is brighter than I think.

Re: Comparing Fuchsia components and Linux containers [video]

#40

Post by knifie_spoonie »

tmp-fuchsia wrote: post #36

I haven’t watched this talk, but I worked on Fuchsia from the start (I’m no longer at Google) and want to clear up some common questions and misconceptions: 1. Fuchsia is a general-purpose operating system built to support Google’s consumer hardware. 2. It’s not designed to compete with or replace Android. Its goal is to replace Linux, which Android is built on. One big challenge it addresses is Linux’s driver proble…

Thanks for the info. For those of us not familiar with it, what were the main motivations for building Fuchsia instead of just using Linux?
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