Live data from Hacker News

Bocoup Is Now Worker-Owned

bocoup.com

31–40 of 47 posts

Re: Bocoup Is Now Worker-Owned

#32
post #30
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you talk about coops, there is a distinction between a consumer coop and a worker coop. A consumer coop is generally where consumers band together to get better prices on consuming some product or group of products. A worker coop is where workers have ownership and make business decisions together. There are actually other coops too - e.g. farming coops are generally capital equipment sharing arrangements - thin…

this is a helpful way of looking at it. so it sounds like REI employees are not seeing any dividends?

The REI workers are basically employees of a retail company that happens to be a coop. The coop part is for shopper/consumer members of people who buy things at REI.

Re: Bocoup Is Now Worker-Owned

#33
post #15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US economic policy is not very favorable to co-ops. Cooperatives face complex tax structures that can be less advantageous compared to traditional corporations. Unlike C-corporations, which have clear tax advantages and deductions, cooperatives must navigate unique tax rules, such as Subchapter T of the IRS code, which governs patronage refunds. The tax code heavily favors investor-owned firms through incentives such…

I have been extremely excited about cooperatives and doing research but good info is scattered (suggestions welcome!). From what I learned I will echo what you said - laws are stacked against cooperatives. In general the corporation, a structure that is centuries old, gets preferential treatment in all situations. It is like human development has been abolished in that domain in the 1800s and that is the status quo.

If you go into history of some nations, e.g. in some regions of Italy, coops go much farther back than the 1800s (the modern form comes about in the 1800s though) and there is an ecosystem of coops to develop and be supported by gov't and each other. In the US though the support legal, financial, and common understanding is much less mature.

Re: Bocoup Is Now Worker-Owned

#34

Announce your company is worker-owned in a blog posted by a guy whose profile pic shows him in a banana suit. Not the best way to build confidence in the new ownership...

Because business must always be boring and straightlaced to be taken seriously. I, for one, like a bit of frivolity in business.

Re: Bocoup Is Now Worker-Owned

#35
post #32
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a helpful way of looking at it. so it sounds like REI employees are not seeing any dividends?

The REI workers are basically employees of a retail company that happens to be a coop. The coop part is for shopper/consumer members of people who buy things at REI.

i see thanks for explaining. i wish they were a bit more clear about that upfront. i had assumed the workers received some of the dividends as well, given their personal investment in the firm.

Re: Bocoup Is Now Worker-Owned

#37
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't bother to articulate what particular claim you wanted an example on. I can't read minds, and you're wasting my time.

> " Co-ops are the job most people want." -- what are some examples?

• Stable employment

• Democratic workplace

• You can have input in whether to optimize for longevity or short-term profit.

• If you do choose to have a profit-sharing, you experience arguably proportional reward for the work you invest.

• Unions are less necessary if you don't need to actively organize to engage in democratic decision structures.

These are examples of qualities that I've found that appear to be desired by the majority of both my tech social-circles and certainly my non-tech-social circles. Certainly there's immense bias in my viewpoint, but I'm not the person equipped to draw together evidence that people want something they aren't even presented with, but it's something I do believe is generally true.

For more historical evidence, to put aside the co-op structure (which is, in my opinion, secondary to the qualities that people want from their business), flat companies have had their moments of popularity with both Valve and Zappos. (obviously neither are co-ops, and I doubt either have labor-proportional profit-sharing now if they ever did, but it's limited evidence people are turned off by the dysfunction of hierarchical businesses.)

More evidence: in the fight between workers and shareholders, shareholders had to use the courts to enforce shareholder primacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co. This indicates the natural tendency of society is to mediate between the needs of the shareholders and workers, something most naturally achieved by making the workers the shareholders.

I realize little of this is likely to be as convincing as the evidence of so many for-profit companies largely not owned by workers, but there's a lot of literature discussing the perverse incentives of divorcing ownership (and investment) from labor that is far too large for a HN comment.

There are, of course, very large co-ops others point out (health insurance, REI (I think?), credit unions), but I can't say I have the insight into the historical reasons why they appear in some industries and not others, in some regions (states) and not others, etc etc.

FWIW, I have worked in for-profit environments where I don't own stock and I've observed genuine concern for all the qualities above. This isn't a hard and fast rule. But most of my workplaces don't show this behavior, and it's quite soured me on gambling with my time (the typical capitalist-to-worker-pitch) rather than finding a lower-return but stabler form of employment that prioritizes quality of work and life. You can get a lot of this by working at large tech companies, but they often undersell how much this affects quality of life despite enormous compensation, and also undersell the sort of dysfunction that would normally be remediable if you let the workers have true representation on the board and among stockholders.

Re: Bocoup Is Now Worker-Owned

#38
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " Co-ops are the job most people want." -- what are some examples?

• Stable employment • Democratic workplace • You can have input in whether to optimize for longevity or short-term profit. • If you do choose to have a profit-sharing, you experience arguably proportional reward for the work you invest. • Unions are less necessary if you don't need to actively organize to engage in democratic decision structures. These are examples of qualities that I've found that appear to be desir…

i mean in reality . any that worked?

Re: Bocoup Is Now Worker-Owned

#40
post #35
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The REI workers are basically employees of a retail company that happens to be a coop. The coop part is for shopper/consumer members of people who buy things at REI.

i see thanks for explaining. i wish they were a bit more clear about that upfront. i had assumed the workers received some of the dividends as well, given their personal investment in the firm.

REI is routinely rated one of the best places to work. When I was there, we had both a pension plan and a 401k with match. Part time employees got PTO and (really good) insurance. They have mandatory paid sabbaticals on top of PTO. But as an employee you get no dividend, as the dividend is based on purchases, and the discounts available were far greater than the 10% back. Still, I wish I had stayed and moved into a technical role as I have never been treated as well as an employee as when I was there.
Post reply on HN