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Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

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Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#31

Post by inglor_cz »

timeon wrote: post #26
lolinder wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The context that's missing for a lot of the left leaning people hearing this is that much of the population of the US still sees police officers as heroes worthy of emulation. The thin blue line between order and chaos is a powerful image for a lot of people, and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being a punisher style police force.

Interesting perspective. Where I live we appreciate police but we do not see them as line that holds society from chaos. Is US this fragile?

The US is quite violent by developed world standards, and it borders Latin America, which is insanely violent even by poor world standards.

IIRC, of the 50 most violent cities in the world, 17 are in Mexico.

This means that a lot more people who have seen grisly things (beheadings by cartels etc.) are present in the US, and this raises the awareness about what could also happen in the absence of a police force.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#33

Post by christophilus »

4bpp wrote: post #23
evujumenuk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, maybe Ted Ts'o is a savvier political operator than I took him for. Invoking a seemingly innocuous (to the mainstream) phrase with heavy undercurrents (to a minority) just to trigger their ire and making them seem unreasonable to any outsider is a great strategy if you have as yet been unsuccessful refuting the central arguments for Rust in the kernel on technical grounds.

...except I figure that at least in the US (where most of the people who can exert pressure on Linux development are located), the phrase's use in this capacity is actually fairly widely known. (It even takes up a significant part of the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin_blue_line ) It seems more likely to me that he used it out of a lack of political savvy than out of an excess of it, and that the p…

I’m from the US. I had no idea “the thin blue line” carried any negative baggage with it.

Though to be fair, I tend to assume that everything has baggage with someone somewhere, since I’ve worked with people (middle aged white men, to be clear) who managed to be offended on other people’s behalf with nearly anything I said. For example, I never learned how to refer to women: saying any of ladies, girls, guys, or women, got me in hot water. I quit that job before I ever learned the secret, non sexist way to speak of or address women.

So, while I’m not surprised a middle aged white dude is upset by “the thin blue line”, I do have a natural inclination to sympathize with whoever used it.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#35

Post by Narishma »

4bpp wrote: post #13

It's as predictable as it is concerning how much the Rust community has hitched its wagon to the US progressive movement. Is this an attempt to remove an adversary in an engineering debate by appealing to a political alliance? Or an attempt to remove a political adversary by appealing to engineering arguments? Either way, both politics and engineering are bound to suffer for it.

This has nothing to do with Rust.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#36

Post by hitekker »

aftbit wrote: post #29

Why are the Rust people so dramatic?

From https://www.phoronix.com/news/Karol-Herbst-Nouveau-No, Karol Herbst is the maintainer of https://docs.mesa3d.org/rusticl.html which is written in Rust.

He also contributes to Asahi Linux, and is apparently good friends with Hector Martin.

It's surprising people are denying his contributions to Rust.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#37

Post by darthrupert »

Woke (modern, post 2010-version) looks like a psyops campaign, designed to destroy the social cohesion of western societies.

Looking at what has happened since 2010 and how the vibe has changed, it seems to have been extremely successful.

It started soon after Russia's demands around European security were denied, and it initially spread from the places where Russia historically had most support: universities.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#38

Post by sophacles »

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #18
lolinder wrote: post #12

Recent and related: Give up 70% of the way through the hyperstitious slur cascade https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/give-up-seventy-percent-of-... I've yet to see anyone put this quote in context to show that the user of it meant it to be racist or offensive. Absent that context I take issue with people singling it out as an example of toxicity. I'm not even convinced that we've hit the 70% mark on this hyperstitious…

It seems to be a largely American thing to think the phrase is bad (reasonably so, given how it has started to be used) and many others seem to not know what it means, evidenced by only understanding the current law enforcement use or their admission that they had to read wikipedia. That said, for many people, it is a hostile phrase that refers to privileges that law enforcement provide for each other and those close…

Ted Tso is an american, living in America. He was born in California and had worked in the us for most or all of his career.

I find it highly unlikely that he isn't aware of what meanings that idiom carries with it. It's possible but I'd need some serious convincing to believe he didn't.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#39

Post by sophacles »

4bpp wrote: post #16
rowanG077 wrote: post #7

What's so wrong about the thin blue line statement? I didn't know about this phrase before so I read the wiki page. Isn't the usage correct? Kernel maintainers need to ensure the kernel code doesn't become a unmaintainable ball of mud.

The statement's recent place in the public consciousness is largely because it was used as a pro-police slogan against the BLM/"police abolition" movement in the US. The Rust community, being overwhelmingly progressive, is already sensitive about supposed dogwhistles, as well as words that cause them negative associations, in computing (in the vein of "master"->"main" renamings); having that slogan used as a metaphor…

The association with avoiding accountability (e.g. officers lying or otherwise covering up corruption) is as old as the phrase, it's not recent.

Re: Karol Herbst Steps Down as Nouveau Maintainer Due to Linux's Toxic Environment

#40

Post by shakezooola »

Fidelix wrote: post #3

> The moment I made up my mind about this was reading the following words written by a maintainer within the kernel community: > "we are the thin blue line" > This isn't okay. This isn't creating an inclusive environment. This isn't okay with the current political situation especially in the US. A maintainer speaking those words can't be kept. No matter how important or critical or relevant they are. They need to be…

Well stated.
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