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Garzik: An Andre To Remember

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Re: Garzik: An Andre To Remember

#31
post #25
post #20

I was going to respond to a few of the comments here, but then I realized I was going to say pretty much the same to all of them, so here goes: I've got clinical depression. What this means is that there is something fundamentally wrong in my brain that causes me to be depressed. There is no direct environmental cause that makes me depressed. Now, here's what many people get wrong about severe depression: Severe depr…

Have any forms of cognitive behaviour therapy or say innerchild/regression therapy helped or been explored? Have you explored dietary changes? Did you have ear infections as a child (relevant question)?

Yes and yes. Both didn't work, or didn't have enough effect to get me out of the no-motivation cycle. Ergo, SSRIs (which thankfully did work). Yes to the third question, too (as a matter of fact I had a cholesteatoma). Could you tell me how that is relevant?

Re: Garzik: An Andre To Remember

#32
post #17
post #2

That's a sad story, and one that's too common in our industry. Mental health issues in software are sadly under-discussed. If you feel like making a difference I'd recommend donating to the Brain & Behavior Research Foundation. They fund studies into mental health disorders, an area of science that is still only vaguely understood. http://bbrfoundation.org/

They're probably not just under-discussed in software but in any industry, because they're under-discussed in society as a whole. I don't know about the US but I believe mentally ill people often refuse to seek help even after they recognized their condition simply because they realize they're "not normal", afraid to be put in the drawer labeled with "crazy guys". I think though that mental illnesses are a lot more c…

I think it makes more sense as just another means by which business consumes workers. I know that sounds all profound and over-generalized crypto-Marxist, but if you look back upon history I think you'll see a consumption metaphor where business is basically treating workers as fungible, resisting healthcare benefits and other quality-of-life exchanges. Margins are to be applied to productivity, and the underling's health is not necessarily a primary concern where they can be replaced.

Re: Garzik: An Andre To Remember

#33

And as usual with this issue, this post shows little understanding of depression. > There is no computing project that is worth your life. Turn off the computer. Seek help. Get outside, enjoy the green grass, the birds in the trees. Talk to people you know. Talk to strangers! Drive to Wisconsin, and find out whatever it is they do there. Build a treehouse. Park on a parkway and drive on a driveway. Make a macaroni ne…

What do we mean by "seek help"? Currently, we have two gold standard treatments, SSRI drugs and Cognitive Behavioural Therapy. SSRI drugs probably sort of work a bit, depending on how much weight you place on non-publication bias. The most flattering data suggests that SSRIs beat placebo by about 30%, meaning that over 75% of the effect of SSRIs is accounted for by placebo - the patient's own beliefs about the effica…

Exercise is not an "arbitrary" intervention, because it also has an evidence base.

Starting someone on a course of CBT (whether applied by a skilled practitioner, or self guided[1]) and then pushing them to exercise and to social life improvement, with meds if needed, is an excellent treatment.

Re: Garzik: An Andre To Remember

#34
I had a good friend from high school who was brilliant. We were academic rivals, but he definitely outworked everyone in the entire school. He got into Duke and graduated with a double major in engineering and economics. He got his law degree, and then his Master's in Law, and passed the bar exam in New York and I think CA.

He was working in patent law in NYC for a few years, and then abruptly quit and moved back home. He said he had some ideas on businesses, and it seemed rational. He started venturing into religion, not for the sake of religion, but to explore the concept of morality. He didn't have a Jewish background, but he became very interested in Judaism because of it's views on morality, and I even bought a book on the Talmud at his insistence, so that we could talk about it. We would have pretty elaborate discussions on morality, etc, over email. He was engaged to get married to a lovely girl, and things looked fine.

Then, just before they got married, they abruptly cancelled their wedding. I emailed him, and I asked him "How are things going? Enquiring minds want to know!"

His only response was "Who are these enquiring minds that you are asking on behalf of?" We exchanged a few emails after that, he accused me of being immoral, and then I never heard from him again.

I contacted his fiancee, and apparently he was exhibiting signs of paranoid schizophrenia. He had become increasingly paranoid over the last few years, and become more and more disassociated with reality.

After that, he basically disappeared. He was always a bit paranoid about leaving his mark on the Internet, and had multiple fake email addresses, so trying to track him down was basically impossible.

Last year, after many years of no contact, I got a phone call from him, presumably from a number that wasn't his, because he had recently realized that in one of his discussions on his business over 10 years ago, he may have gotten me to agree to terms that would have been personally unfavorable, and he wanted to release me from all obligations from this agreement. I didn't know what he was talking about, but we never did anything more than talk about things, and his "businesses" never amounted to anything except talking. But I agreed to be absolved from those obligations. Then asked how things were with him, and he was extremely vagued, and then hung up on me.

It's very sad, because he was very brilliant, but it's clear he is mentally ill. And there's nothing I can do about it. He has no siblings, and both his parents are dead, so there's no one I can even contact.

It sounds similar to the case of Garzik in that I don't know if the concept of "take care of yourself" is relevant. He probably didn't realize he was mentally ill, if what the original emailer said was true about him being paranoid. It probably would have been something the family would need to pursue, but getting someone evaluated, etc, is hard, and as the emailer said, it would only increase the negative feedback loop for Garzik, since he would suspect everyone was out to get him, so it's a really tough problem to solve.

Re: Garzik: An Andre To Remember

#35
post #20

I was going to respond to a few of the comments here, but then I realized I was going to say pretty much the same to all of them, so here goes: I've got clinical depression. What this means is that there is something fundamentally wrong in my brain that causes me to be depressed. There is no direct environmental cause that makes me depressed. Now, here's what many people get wrong about severe depression: Severe depr…

I also have clinical depression, and this has also been my experience. Something which also adds to the problems is that people so often condescend - 'you won't feel better unless you do X, Y or Z' and actually essentially accuse you of bringing it on yourself. And a lot of the problem is the guilt you feel about everything, so it's the worst possible thing you can do for a depressed person. I find having some projec…

"clinical" depression is meaningless. Literally, it has no meaning. Perhaps you mean "Diagnosed by a real doctor", as opposed to "self diagnosed from a check list"?

But when we look at depression diagnosed by experts we see a variety of forms, and a variety of strengths.

I agree that well meaning people sometimes offer really bad advice.

But advice about developing a healthy lifestyle (being careful with caffeine, alcohol, recreational drugs; eating better; sorting out sleep; getting exercise) and developing a social life are important, because these thing help people with very serious, life threatening, illness. In combination with therapy they can be part of an effective cure for many people. (At least leaving others with several years of recovery). If needed, this advice can be combined with medication. And, if needed, all of this stuff can be started if the patient is in hospital. (At least in England all MH hospitals should have programmes of OT to start social life outside hospital and they should have some kind of exercise stuff, and contacts with local gyms.)

I've known people who are ill enough to require electro convulsive therapy and they said that this other stuff was important to them, but that they needed help to apply it.

And that's the important thing. Saying "I am to ill to do this stuff" is not the same as saying "this stuff would not be helpful to me if I did it". What people need is help to apply this stuff.

Re: Garzik: An Andre To Remember

#36
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have clinical depression, and this has also been my experience. Something which also adds to the problems is that people so often condescend - 'you won't feel better unless you do X, Y or Z' and actually essentially accuse you of bringing it on yourself. And a lot of the problem is the guilt you feel about everything, so it's the worst possible thing you can do for a depressed person. I find having some projec…

"clinical" depression is meaningless. Literally, it has no meaning. Perhaps you mean "Diagnosed by a real doctor", as opposed to "self diagnosed from a check list"? But when we look at depression diagnosed by experts we see a variety of forms, and a variety of strengths. I agree that well meaning people sometimes offer really bad advice. But advice about developing a healthy lifestyle (being careful with caffeine, al…

Well, to me 'clinical' depression implies diagnosed by a doctor, yes.

Sure, and it does vary a lot. So perhaps I meant to say severe vs. mild.

People overstate these things to a degree. Like I said, sure they help, but it's scratching the surface IMHO. What's more important is to attack the depression itself, directly.

And, though anecdotal, I've been through periods being severely depressed despite going to the gym a lot, and eating relatively well, and had it make very little difference. I've also socialised a lot and had that make no difference. So this isn't just conjecture.

I guess part of it is that it varies from person to person. Also the degree of the depression at any given time waxes and wanes.

And agreed, a key thing is to admit you can't do it all by yourself, and go and get help.

The key thing, however, is for people to lose that attitude of 'go get a life doing things I think are healthy/fun and you'll be happy' because, basically, that's b.s. projection, and for some it borders on blame-the-victim mentality.

I think diseases like depression are particularly problematic because people don't take them seriously and imagine that they're not all that serious, perhaps slightly made up, or not as solid and easy to diagnose and understand as a physical illness. Perhaps people need to come to respect it more.

Re: Garzik: An Andre To Remember

#37
This story hits close to home for me. As one of the countless others like me on Hacker News who started out their educations and careers with so much promise, all I feel anymore is this tremendous sense of failure and missed opportunity.

These days I think of programming the way I think of working out: intense bursts of focus on creativity for maybe 2-4 hours if I'm lucky, and then hours to days of melancholy because the tools and methodologies I'm using are all garbage.

Examples of mainstream trash: ios, objective-c, flash, php, c++, 802.11, usb, xml, html5, mpeg, mp3, dram caches, opengl, just on and on and on. Literally every tool I use on a daily basis, every file format, every communication protocol, everything, all fatally flawed in some way. My life has been an almost complete waste.

I don't know much about IDE/ATA but it must be quite a garbage dump to traverse. Turning that into something clean like a socket/file reference is remarkable. Just think of all the things that don't work on hard drives: how they fail to write the last bit of data in a power failure or maintain directory consistency, how they were so far behind on caching and hybrid flash/platter drives, just on and on, a tower of babel of remarkably cheap but inadequate hardware. Dealing with that, and the layers of politics that perpetuate such monstrosities would be enough to drive a person mad.

Thank god I'm not depressed though. I was severely out of it from 2000-2010 for a lot of obvious reasons but I finally let everything go and have never been happier. I. Am. Not. Depressed. It's glorious to say, I feel it all the way to my core. Life can turn around, and one day you'll wake up and realize that you don't give a crap about solving the world's problems anymore, because it's all too far gone. It's not your fault. Just find your niche and reach some level of sustainability, and save the world later.

Re: Garzik: An Andre To Remember

#38

I had a good friend from high school who was brilliant. We were academic rivals, but he definitely outworked everyone in the entire school. He got into Duke and graduated with a double major in engineering and economics. He got his law degree, and then his Master's in Law, and passed the bar exam in New York and I think CA. He was working in patent law in NYC for a few years, and then abruptly quit and moved back hom…

Garzik is not the guy with the problems; Garzik is the guy writing the story.

By the way, thanks for sharing the story of your friend.

Re: Garzik: An Andre To Remember

#40
post #20

I was going to respond to a few of the comments here, but then I realized I was going to say pretty much the same to all of them, so here goes: I've got clinical depression. What this means is that there is something fundamentally wrong in my brain that causes me to be depressed. There is no direct environmental cause that makes me depressed. Now, here's what many people get wrong about severe depression: Severe depr…

In my experience, depression is something you can't cure. You can fix it for a while, but it always lurks, waiting to come back. In my case, environmental changes ensure that it won't show up again as strong or as fast. I'm pretty sure I don't need medication right now . But that's not to say I'm cured by any means. Just that I'm doing better and finding ways of coping with it.

Could you describe those environmental changes, I've been curious about this for a while.
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