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OnLive comes to Ouya, Controller Makes Full Frontal Debut

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Re: OnLive comes to Ouya, Controller Makes Full Frontal Debut

#31

Post by rsynnott »

needle0 wrote: post #23
pvidler wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If their controller fails horribly, perhaps they could use the OnLive 'universal' controller -- the one that works with OnLive's console as well as all laptops and android/iOS devices. It's actually a really nice controller -- better than the PS3, slightly worse than the Xbox 360 (but without the battery pack issues).

Wait, how can the OnLive controller support iOS? AFAIK iOS only supports Bluetooth HID keyboards, not joysticks/gamepads.

http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#featuredarticles/Ext...

See also Core Bluetooth (though that's somewhat different, being for Bluetooth 4LE devices).

Re: OnLive comes to Ouya, Controller Makes Full Frontal Debut

#32

Post by slantyyz »

Cushman wrote: post #25
slantyyz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Consoles lack a good input anyway, compared to the mouse. I don't get why some people think that gaming is all about FPS's and RTS games. Why on earth would I want to use a mouse on a game like Street Fighter IV, Tetris, Bust-A-Move, Pac Man, Mario, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, etc. I can name a lot of games that work better with a traditional D-Pad type of controller than they would with a keyboard or mouse.

The D-pad setup has a serious limitation in that it forces you to use your thumbs. I have ten fingers; with a keyboard, I can have instantaneous command over ten actions (though eight or nine is more usual). With a console controller, it's two . (Four if we count triggers, but console games tend not to have fully-reconfigurable controls.) I ran into this playing the Tony Hawk games, which I loved on the PC; on the co…

>> The D-pad setup has a serious limitation in that it forces you to use your thumbs.

O RLY?

I have been using D-pads with my right hand "piano style" for over a decade. I don't use my right thumb at all. Anyone who's been exposed to a fighting game on a console knows that for many moves, you need to press multiple buttons simultaneously.

That you wouldn't think to hold the controller differently is kinda mind boggling.

Re: OnLive comes to Ouya, Controller Makes Full Frontal Debut

#33

Post by Cushman »

slantyyz wrote: post #32
Cushman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The D-pad setup has a serious limitation in that it forces you to use your thumbs. I have ten fingers; with a keyboard, I can have instantaneous command over ten actions (though eight or nine is more usual). With a console controller, it's two . (Four if we count triggers, but console games tend not to have fully-reconfigurable controls.) I ran into this playing the Tony Hawk games, which I loved on the PC; on the co…

>> The D-pad setup has a serious limitation in that it forces you to use your thumbs. O RLY? I have been using D-pads with my right hand "piano style" for over a decade. I don't use my right thumb at all. Anyone who's been exposed to a fighting game on a console knows that for many moves, you need to press multiple buttons simultaneously. That you wouldn't think to hold the controller differently is kinda mind boggli…

Okay, well, that's kind of the point. Why are you holding a device designed to fit the human hand a particular way in a different way to get around its design limitations while claiming it's superior to another device designed without those limitations? The PHP hammer springs to mind.

Re: OnLive comes to Ouya, Controller Makes Full Frontal Debut

#34

Post by slantyyz »

Cushman wrote: post #33
slantyyz wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The D-pad setup has a serious limitation in that it forces you to use your thumbs. O RLY? I have been using D-pads with my right hand "piano style" for over a decade. I don't use my right thumb at all. Anyone who's been exposed to a fighting game on a console knows that for many moves, you need to press multiple buttons simultaneously. That you wouldn't think to hold the controller differently is kinda mind boggli…

Okay, well, that's kind of the point. Why are you holding a device designed to fit the human hand a particular way in a different way to get around its design limitations while claiming it's superior to another device designed without those limitations? The PHP hammer springs to mind.

It's not a design limitation. Gamepads are designed to handle multiple use cases, not just one. That's why the analog joystick works as a substitute for the D-pad for many games.

To presume that there's only one way to hold it is just narrow thinking.

Hell, this guy (Brolylegs) was a top bracket player in Street Fighter in EVO and he uses his face on a gamepad to play a game that requires directional control and six buttons to play properly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va2QO-qtb_Q

--edit--

>> claiming it's superior to another device designed without those limitations? The PHP hammer springs to mind.

So "hey, I can use a device designed for text entry as a game controller" isn't like a PHP hammer?

Re: OnLive comes to Ouya, Controller Makes Full Frontal Debut

#35

Post by dguaraglia »

TheEzEzz wrote: post #28

The big news here isn't the controller, it's OnLive. With Google fiber rolling out, and eventually pushing the country toward gigabit, there will no longer be any reason why a cheap, weak box with an internet connection can't topple the console giants. Eventually this will spill over into general computing. There is a giant pie to be won here, and both OnLive and Google know how valuable it is.

Just pointing out: bandwidth isn't half as important as latency is in this context. We still don't know how good latency will be on Google Fiber.

Re: OnLive comes to Ouya, Controller Makes Full Frontal Debut

#36

Post by onli »

adam-a wrote: post #26
onli wrote: post #7

This is where projects like this may fail brutally. Controller-design is hard. Mapping small fast movements to the screen, especially when playing 3D-games, needs a perfectly for the job designed hardware. Consoles lack a good input anyway, compared to the mouse. That is why kinect was so promising, though of course movement-controllers have their own set of issues. Their solution now is to cave. They didn't design t…

>> That is why kinect was so promising Perhaps it was promising, but it is fairly terrible in practice. Except for a few dance and fitness games. The thing about traditional controllers is they are both precise and abstracted. Button presses are clear, and work well with the complexity of most games. The analogue features give a higher degree of control but are still very discrete. As for their abstracted nature, one…

>So why do you think they need to revolutionise the controller?

I don't. I wanted to point out that they copied an existing, working design. Which is probably a smart thing to do for such a project.

>As for their abstracted nature, one of the distinguishing features of humans vs animals is our ability to use tools, devices which are one step abstracted from direct action.

Careful with such claims ;) Even birds can learn that.

Re: OnLive comes to Ouya, Controller Makes Full Frontal Debut

#37

Post by CJefferson »

stewie2 wrote: post #17
slantyyz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Consoles lack a good input anyway, compared to the mouse. I don't get why some people think that gaming is all about FPS's and RTS games. Why on earth would I want to use a mouse on a game like Street Fighter IV, Tetris, Bust-A-Move, Pac Man, Mario, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, etc. I can name a lot of games that work better with a traditional D-Pad type of controller than they would with a keyboard or mouse.

I'd like to use a keyboard to play street fighter and super mario. The reason I think keyboard is superior is that when using a keyboard, I can have few fingers on top of keys at the same time. Whereas when using the controller, I just use two thumbs. My thumb has to jump between buttons in order to switch different moves. That is slow.

There seems to be a consenous(ish) among players of Super Meat Boy (a mario-like, very hard, platformer) that using a controller is slightly easier.

Certainly I have tried playing street fighter with a keyboard and found it extremely hard.

Also, I couldn't imagine how you would play a 2d platformer which used an analogue stick. You lose the analogue if you map to the keyboard, and it doesn't really map easily to a mouse (as you can't keep moving your mouse in one direction forever).

Re: OnLive comes to Ouya, Controller Makes Full Frontal Debut

#38

Post by cube13 »

adam-a wrote: post #26
onli wrote: post #7

This is where projects like this may fail brutally. Controller-design is hard. Mapping small fast movements to the screen, especially when playing 3D-games, needs a perfectly for the job designed hardware. Consoles lack a good input anyway, compared to the mouse. That is why kinect was so promising, though of course movement-controllers have their own set of issues. Their solution now is to cave. They didn't design t…

>> That is why kinect was so promising Perhaps it was promising, but it is fairly terrible in practice. Except for a few dance and fitness games. The thing about traditional controllers is they are both precise and abstracted. Button presses are clear, and work well with the complexity of most games. The analogue features give a higher degree of control but are still very discrete. As for their abstracted nature, one…

>So why do you think they need to revolutionise the controller? The original XBox had a mild stab at something new but they quickly reverted to a design much more similar to the Playstation Dual Shock.

There weren't really that many changes from the original XBox controller to the 360's controller. The face buttons and the stick positions didn't really change. In terms of buttons, the only major change was the removal of the black/white buttons from the original XBox, and the addition of the RB and LB bumpers to the 360.

The major change was that the side grip rails were made smaller.

Re: OnLive comes to Ouya, Controller Makes Full Frontal Debut

#39

Post by jiggy2011 »

dguaraglia wrote: post #35
TheEzEzz wrote: post #28

The big news here isn't the controller, it's OnLive. With Google fiber rolling out, and eventually pushing the country toward gigabit, there will no longer be any reason why a cheap, weak box with an internet connection can't topple the console giants. Eventually this will spill over into general computing. There is a giant pie to be won here, and both OnLive and Google know how valuable it is.

Just pointing out: bandwidth isn't half as important as latency is in this context. We still don't know how good latency will be on Google Fiber.

Maybe the answer is to have local nodes. Think of it like a traditional video arcade, somewhere in your town is a small datacentre full of servers hosting various games.

Re: OnLive comes to Ouya, Controller Makes Full Frontal Debut

#40

Post by forrestthewoods »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #39
dguaraglia wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just pointing out: bandwidth isn't half as important as latency is in this context. We still don't know how good latency will be on Google Fiber.

Maybe the answer is to have local nodes. Think of it like a traditional video arcade, somewhere in your town is a small datacentre full of servers hosting various games.

And if that still isn't good enough then each gamer can have their own personal mini-datacenter in a box right by their TV or monitor! :)
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