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Advanced Magnet Manufacturing Begins in the United States

spectrum.ieee.org

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Re: Advanced Magnet Manufacturing Begins in the United States

#31

Post by throwaway422432 »

ggm wrote: post #23

We're not looking for autarky, we're looking for strategic assurances and avoidance of dependency with adversarial consequences. It annoys me economic arguments delayed work to expand Australian rare earth sources, it would have been good not to get caught behind "cheaper is best" decision logic. The same logic shut down our microelectronics industry, local manufacturing, strategic policy in oil reserves and refining…

It's happening but slowly.

Lynas Rare Earths who are the largest miner and processor outside of China are in the initial stages of building a plant in Texas (which includes funding from the DoD). They currently have plants in Kalgoorlie and Malaysia, but not end-to-end making magnets.

Iluka have also secured the additional funding required for a processing plant in Australia and have deals with other miners for feed stock once they get going.

Disclaimer: I own shares in the above two and others and all currently at a loss on my initial investments.

Re: Advanced Magnet Manufacturing Begins in the United States

#32

Post by Sporktacular »

This article just kind of assumes the reader should prefer US firms succeed in making these magnets over Chinese firms. I'm not sure why I should prefer that if China do it cheaper and better. Some nationalistic readers or those concerned about US national security and supply chains might care. Or maybe the US should just maintain better trade relations, and vote to do so.

Re: Advanced Magnet Manufacturing Begins in the United States

#33

Post by gkanai »

Time and time again we see the US moving production of some key product or material overseas only to regret that decision a number of years later. It happens over and over again.

Market forces are great, but should be ignored in key sectors that are important for national security. That goes for rare earth minerals or shipbuilding or key supplies for munitions or PPE that we needed during the pandemic, (etc.)

Re: Advanced Magnet Manufacturing Begins in the United States

#35

Post by pbmonster »

Zamiel_Snawley wrote: post #19
pbmonster wrote: post #10

Any motor experts here? Why are they chasing rare earth metals in the first place? In the end, the mines are going to be in China anyway, right? Why don't we design around rare earth magnets in the first place? Synchronous reluctance motors where torque density isn't a strict requirement, and brushless separately excited synchronous motors (synchro motor with electromagnets on the rotor) for high torque/energy densit…

Electromagnets for the rotor cause significantly more heating, exactly where it is hardest cool, and where the heat is most likely to seep into the load. For high torque density applications, heat dissipation is often the limiting factor on duty cycle. Also, the slip rings capable of passing high current to an electromagnet rotor are expensive and less robust than permanent magnets. Essentially: it’s possible but I h…

> Also, the slip rings capable of passing high current to an electromagnet rotor are expensive and less robust than permanent magnets.

The new designs are all inductively coupled, i.e. they have a rotating transformer coil built into the shaft. No brushes, no slip rings.

Re: Advanced Magnet Manufacturing Begins in the United States

#36

Post by pbmonster »

nyokodo wrote: post #24
pbmonster wrote: post #10

Any motor experts here? Why are they chasing rare earth metals in the first place? In the end, the mines are going to be in China anyway, right? Why don't we design around rare earth magnets in the first place? Synchronous reluctance motors where torque density isn't a strict requirement, and brushless separately excited synchronous motors (synchro motor with electromagnets on the rotor) for high torque/energy densit…

> the mines are going to be in China anyway, right If you had read the article you’d know they have their own mine: “Hardly any firms, even in China, do what MP is attempting: produce finished magnets starting with ore that the company mines itself” Mostly China doesn’t mine materials but has concentrated the refining capacity in China for many commodities. Thankfully, we do have backup capacity so we won’t be totall…

> Mostly China doesn’t mine materials but has concentrated the refining capacity

Unless I'm working on old information, this is not correct. The overwhelming majority of neodymium mining capacity is currently in China.

> you’d know they have their own mine:

Sure, but to make a difference from a geopolitical perspective, we need more than that. And I don't see those kind of mines being opened on a large scale anywhere in the west. Regulations are challenging and environmental resistance is significant.

Re: Advanced Magnet Manufacturing Begins in the United States

#38

Post by jillesvangurp »

ck2 wrote: post #2

"rare earth metals" aren't "rare" to the USA They are "rare" per ton of earth in general So it's just that mining them is so labor intensive and so toxic (uranium and other radioactivity) that it is expensive outside of places like China. Automate that with bots or whatnot and maybe we don't have to invade Canada and Greenland and start WW3

I think the word 'rare' in rare earths here is merely implies expensive. That's why having cheap alternatives is such a big deal.

Interesting to note that there is quite big movement towards rare earth free electrical motors in the last few years that rely only on cheap, readily available materials. Some expect that to grab up to 30% of the market in about a decade. Similar technology is also being used for creating wind generators that don't depend on these expensive/rare materials.

Re: Advanced Magnet Manufacturing Begins in the United States

#39

Post by droopyEyelids »

mikewarot wrote: post #26

Perhaps it was a bad idea to let it stop happening in the US[1] in the first place? I have acquaintances who told me about this more than a decade ago. We thought it was stupid to let the production lines go then... and obviously, we were right. [1] https://www.counterpunch.org/2006/04/07/the-saga-of-magneque...

Its easy to throw around words like “stupid” on the internet, especially with hindsight, but how could it have been anything but a complex decision estimating values for many variables?

Would they have been able to hit a competitive price while maintaining environmental regs and paying a domestic workforce, would china end up the only other supplier in the world? Can government subsidies be counted on to last multiple administrations?

Re: Advanced Magnet Manufacturing Begins in the United States

#40

Post by roenxi »

Animats wrote: post #21

MP Minerals got their magnet plant going. Good. MP Minerals operates the Mountain Pass, CA rare earths mine. This was the largest rare earths mine in the world at one time. After several shutdowns and two bankruptcies due to low rare earth prices, MP Minerals bought the mine in 2017 and had it producing ore in 2020. The mine already had a "beneficiation" plant, where raw ore goes in and a mix of rare earth elements,…

> After several shutdowns and two bankruptcies due to low rare earth prices...

It's important to contextualise this, it is probably the most important part of the entire story. Rare earths aren't all that rare, they generally have a crustal abundance comparable to copper. The question of where rare earth mining & processing happens is mainly one of price. Or, accounting for second order effects, a question of environmental regulations.

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