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In the trenches: on being an Engineering Manager

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Re: In the trenches: on being an Engineering Manager

#31

Post by jmillikin »

ahtihn wrote: post #27
fffrantz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, and it's striking to me that there never was a crackdown on this, but in a lot of countries, you cannot call yourself an engineer unless you have an engineering degree from a vetted higher-ed institution and are part of your provincial/state engineers' association. For example, in N.S., your job title cannot contain the word engineer unless you're registered as an engineer with Engineers Nova Scotia, the provin…

Why do you want the government to regulate what people are allowed to call themselves when there's no public benefit? What harm is being caused by software developers calling themselves software engineers? It's seems like authoritarian power-tripping to want to regulate this.

Many professions have legally protected titles. In the USA it's illegal for someone without a CPA license to claim the title of "certified public accountant", and since engineering failures can have fatal consequences the same protection is offered to the title "engineer" (or "professional engineer", etc) in some countries.

You might argue that it's the certification that matters, not the title, but the title of "structural engineer" has been around for approximately as long as humans have been stacking up rocks to sleep under; the certifications have not.

Re: In the trenches: on being an Engineering Manager

#32

Post by austin-cheney »

sevensor wrote: post #29
austin-cheney wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish people would stop calling software developers engineers because they aren’t. A professional engineer is competent by virtue of his/her fundamental education and training to apply the scientific method and outlook to the analysis and solution of engineering problems. He/she is able to assume personal responsibility for the development and application of engineering science and knowledge, notably in resea…

As someone who holds degrees in Real Engineering, I don’t care what computer programmers call themselves. I agree that most of the time, Software Engineer is an aspirational title, but you could say that about a fair number of electrical engineers too. You’re just not close enough to the field to see what marginal competence looks like. For that matter, Doctor was once an aspirational title for physicians, having bee…

> For that matter, Doctor was once

In that case what would it take for Software Engineer to become more than aspirational?

Re: In the trenches: on being an Engineering Manager

#33

Post by austin-cheney »

fallingknife wrote: post #26
austin-cheney wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish people would stop calling software developers engineers because they aren’t. A professional engineer is competent by virtue of his/her fundamental education and training to apply the scientific method and outlook to the analysis and solution of engineering problems. He/she is able to assume personal responsibility for the development and application of engineering science and knowledge, notably in resea…

Reasons why nobody worthy of the title engineer should take this definition seriously: 1. It is recursive 2. It equates training and education with competence 3. It was written by a bureaucracy

I don't see why any of those are negative qualities.

Re: In the trenches: on being an Engineering Manager

#34

Post by bilvar »

dijksterhuis wrote: post #12
twelve40 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think this is actually good advice when rephrased as: you are now a low-to-middle manager (that is called out specifically), so you neither call the shots nor are you mainly measured on your daily tech contributions, so from now on you can no longer avoid whimsical, irrelevant BS that is a waste of time like debating the branch names, because fielding that is a part of your job description now, so you need to embra…

Sort of. I wouldn't call it whimsical, irrelevant BS though. From the article: > I remind myself that my role isn’t to be the most skilled person in the room but to create an environment where the most skilled people can thrive. If most people in the team think we should switch to main instead of master, why would I sit there and deny the change? How am I going to find out if most people on the team think this way? A…

Oh my god, if my manager asked me to waste my time on such trivialities - or even worse, calling team meetings to “discuss” them so that we can now collectively waste our time, I would quit the next moment. During my exit interview I would state that my manager was an imbecile, incompetent and the reason I am leaving.

Re: In the trenches: on being an Engineering Manager

#35

Post by austin-cheney »

ahtihn wrote: post #27
fffrantz wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, and it's striking to me that there never was a crackdown on this, but in a lot of countries, you cannot call yourself an engineer unless you have an engineering degree from a vetted higher-ed institution and are part of your provincial/state engineers' association. For example, in N.S., your job title cannot contain the word engineer unless you're registered as an engineer with Engineers Nova Scotia, the provin…

Why do you want the government to regulate what people are allowed to call themselves when there's no public benefit? What harm is being caused by software developers calling themselves software engineers? It's seems like authoritarian power-tripping to want to regulate this.

In the United States it is illegal to identify yourself as a police officer when you are not, and there are clear consequences for violating such laws. Professional titles either carry some sort of significance or they don't. The very clear consequence of titles/labels that aren't valid is fraud and there are very many laws in the US about this for a variety of venues.

It seems the only reason for a person to identify themself as some sort of engineer when they are not is fraud. What other would a person have to misrepresent themself?

Re: In the trenches: on being an Engineering Manager

#36

Post by bilvar »

In my experience engineering managers have been just exception handlers, not leaders. If they can handle the exception by finding the right person to delegate to its fine, otherwise they rethrow so that that it bubbles up and the next level of management can catch it.

Generally, they never made any real decisions or have any real vision to inspire with and execute.

Re: In the trenches: on being an Engineering Manager

#37

Post by odiroot »

austin-cheney wrote: post #21
zug_zug wrote: post #5

I think this is a decent article, with some distilled wisdom... Though I also think it has some repeating status-quo mumbo-jumbo. Every time somebody says a soft-science claim and presents it as a fact, I try to vet it with this heuristic: It can't just sound good, or satisfying, but is it actually true? Imagine whether a case can be made for the exact opposite statement, or whether there may be circumstances that th…

I really wish people would stop calling software developers engineers because they aren’t. A professional engineer is competent by virtue of his/her fundamental education and training to apply the scientific method and outlook to the analysis and solution of engineering problems. He/she is able to assume personal responsibility for the development and application of engineering science and knowledge, notably in resea…

Sorry, not going to stop calling myself that. I have a diploma to prove it. It is in no way worse (or better) than any other diploma issued by my university.

Re: In the trenches: on being an Engineering Manager

#38

Post by withinboredom »

austin-cheney wrote: post #32
sevensor wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who holds degrees in Real Engineering, I don’t care what computer programmers call themselves. I agree that most of the time, Software Engineer is an aspirational title, but you could say that about a fair number of electrical engineers too. You’re just not close enough to the field to see what marginal competence looks like. For that matter, Doctor was once an aspirational title for physicians, having bee…

> For that matter, Doctor was once In that case what would it take for Software Engineer to become more than aspirational?

IIRC, Australia has actual licensing to call yourself a "software engineer." I assume you'd need actual laws passed to regulate the industry.

Re: In the trenches: on being an Engineering Manager

#39

Post by withinboredom »

bilvar wrote: post #36

In my experience engineering managers have been just exception handlers, not leaders. If they can handle the exception by finding the right person to delegate to its fine, otherwise they rethrow so that that it bubbles up and the next level of management can catch it. Generally, they never made any real decisions or have any real vision to inspire with and execute.

Are you on a team with strong personalities that actually lead? If so, then that manager is probably a bug in their ear about what the business wants. I love and hate managing those types of team because it is literally like herding cats. When they are going in the right direction, it is a blast. When they disagree with you, it can be painful. Especially if you have no real teeth to provide negative feedback.

Leading a team when everyone is just "there for a paycheck" is much easier, but not as much fun. You basically just need to make sure all the tickets are lined up and everyone is working on the right things.

Re: In the trenches: on being an Engineering Manager

#40

Post by sevensor »

austin-cheney wrote: post #32
sevensor wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who holds degrees in Real Engineering, I don’t care what computer programmers call themselves. I agree that most of the time, Software Engineer is an aspirational title, but you could say that about a fair number of electrical engineers too. You’re just not close enough to the field to see what marginal competence looks like. For that matter, Doctor was once an aspirational title for physicians, having bee…

> For that matter, Doctor was once In that case what would it take for Software Engineer to become more than aspirational?

Eventually our understanding of the term will evolve to match its use, which is my point with the Doctor anecdote. Don’t try to fight the evolution of language; you may as well stand with Canute by the sea, yelling at the tide. No more did Victorian prescriptivists end the splitting of the infinitive.
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