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Falcon 9 Rocket Launch Scrubbed After Delta Air Flies into Restricted Airspace

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Re: Falcon 9 Rocket Launch Scrubbed After Delta Air Flies into Restricted Airspace

#31

Post by NooneAtAll3 »

dylan604 wrote: post #10
stravant wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if ATC gets a number to call.

It's should not be ATC's responsibility to call anyone with random checks for NOTAMs to issue. If you want a NOTAM, you call ATC. At least, that's the only way it makes any kind of logical sense.

I guess you haven't been much in comment sections under ATC recordings channels, like VASAaviation and such

it's relatively common to see events where pilots mess up (to a dangerous degree), so ATC says "I have a number for you to call"

basic pattern recognition transforms it into a meme catchphrase for the fans for anyone who messes up

Re: Falcon 9 Rocket Launch Scrubbed After Delta Air Flies into Restricted Airspace

#33

Post by stouset »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #28
gbear605 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delta seems to have done nothing wrong, they were following incorrect instructions from air traffic control.

There is usually a difference between 'did nothing wrong' and primary responsibility.

In this case, DAL neither did anything wrong nor bears any responsibility.

They were being controlled by ATC, ATC told them where to fly. ATC erred.

Re: Falcon 9 Rocket Launch Scrubbed After Delta Air Flies into Restricted Airspace

#34

Post by fotta »

The comments from the VASAviation video [0] seem to indicate that it wasn’t the DL but instead the WN plane that caused the scrub. The DL was routed north of the zone and the WN was routed south of the zone. The launch path is southerly, so it seems like the WN was the more likely offender, but I guess we won’t know specifically until we hear from the RSO.

[0] https://youtu.be/4RMhf0YELrA

Re: Falcon 9 Rocket Launch Scrubbed After Delta Air Flies into Restricted Airspace

#35

Post by ezfe »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #28
gbear605 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delta seems to have done nothing wrong, they were following incorrect instructions from air traffic control.

There is usually a difference between 'did nothing wrong' and primary responsibility.

Sure, of course if ATC tells them to land on a runway that is clearly occupied they have a responsibility to notice this and override.

In this case, they were directed into an area that was not occupied by an authority that controls the region's airspace. They could have asked ATC about it but ATC has control over the airspace.

Re: Falcon 9 Rocket Launch Scrubbed After Delta Air Flies into Restricted Airspace

#36

Post by stouset »

_s wrote: post #24
dylan604 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second, but as a pilot (even a commercial pilot about to be instructed by ATC) are you not still expected to look up conditions in the area of your flight? I would expect NOTAMs to be a part of that check of the conditions. If you know of the restrictions and ATC instructs you into that area, a quick confirm request about the NOTAM conflict does not seem out of place.

Yes & no, definitely more no for practical reasons. Let me explain; ATC are ultimately expected to know about restrictions and keep traffic away from them. NOTAM's are a notorious pain point for nearly all pilots. Modern EFB's make that easier, but in the 121 world - the ops folks handle your routing and plan for that stuff - as a pilot you "trust but verify", and most skim through the all the things (routing, fuels,…

To underscore your point, the original flight plan almost certainly did not transit that region. So the pilot likely wouldn’t have even been aware that there’s a TFR somewhere vaguely adjacent to their intended path.

ATC issues minor deviations all the time and for a plethora of reasons as you mentioned. And those instructions are expected to be followed promptly, not “after I’ve spent a half hour re-reviewing hundreds of possible NOTAMs along the new course”.

Re: Falcon 9 Rocket Launch Scrubbed After Delta Air Flies into Restricted Airspace

#37

Post by generj »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #29
NotYourLawyer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’s an awkward autistic guy. He does awkward stuff. That’s not him being a Nazi.

He has Asperger's, not Tourette's or full blown Autism.

He may have something like Asperger’s. No diagnosis has ever been provided so it’s all just conjecture. IIRC he’s self diagnosed.

In any case I’m pretty tired of people making excuses for him based on this claim, as if it’s some sort of get out of jail card only to be played when he faces criticism. I know plenty of people on the spectrum who aren’t acting like Elon.

Re: Falcon 9 Rocket Launch Scrubbed After Delta Air Flies into Restricted Airspace

#38

Post by generj »

NotYourLawyer wrote: post #21
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #18

[flagged]

He’s an awkward autistic guy. He does awkward stuff. That’s not him being a Nazi.

I reviewed the video, and there’s not very much ambiguity.

He pretty clearly deliberately does a Nazi salute, twice.

Re: Falcon 9 Rocket Launch Scrubbed After Delta Air Flies into Restricted Airspace

#39

Post by NikkiA »

_s wrote: post #24
dylan604 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second, but as a pilot (even a commercial pilot about to be instructed by ATC) are you not still expected to look up conditions in the area of your flight? I would expect NOTAMs to be a part of that check of the conditions. If you know of the restrictions and ATC instructs you into that area, a quick confirm request about the NOTAM conflict does not seem out of place.

Yes & no, definitely more no for practical reasons. Let me explain; ATC are ultimately expected to know about restrictions and keep traffic away from them. NOTAM's are a notorious pain point for nearly all pilots. Modern EFB's make that easier, but in the 121 world - the ops folks handle your routing and plan for that stuff - as a pilot you "trust but verify", and most skim through the all the things (routing, fuels,…

> Here's a NOTAM for a Starship launch (I don't know if it was for this one specifically, I don't want to use my limited brain cells right now):

2411 sticks out from the datestamp, so no, not this one unless the news article is 2 months late.

Re: Falcon 9 Rocket Launch Scrubbed After Delta Air Flies into Restricted Airspace

#40

Post by s1artibartfast »

stouset wrote: post #33
s1artibartfast wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is usually a difference between 'did nothing wrong' and primary responsibility.

In this case, DAL neither did anything wrong nor bears any responsibility. They were being controlled by ATC, ATC told them where to fly. ATC erred.

If ATC put them straight into a Mountain, would it be correct to dutifully fly into it, or would that be an error on the pilot side?

My understanding is that Pilots are also required to review NOTAMs. There are tons of systems and operations with redundancy built in. An error in the primary does not negate an error in the backup. In fact, it is often the only way you learn of errors with the backup.

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