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Frustration Tolerance: An Essential for Surviving Large Orgs

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Re: Frustration Tolerance: An Essential for Surviving Large Orgs

#31

Post by SoftTalker »

jancsika wrote: post #26
nateburke wrote: post #10

"I learned that the world of men as it exists today is a bureaucracy. This is an obvious truth, of course, though it is also one the ignorance of which causes great suffering. “But moreover, I discovered, in the only way that a man ever really learns anything important, the real skill that is required to succeed in a bureaucracy. I mean really succeed: do good, make a difference, serve. I discovered the key. This key…

> "The underlying bureaucratic key is the ability to deal with boredom." The key to excellence in any human endeavor is the ability to deal with boredom. Wallace was a serious tennis player for awhile, surely he must know this. It's as if he (and most of HN) has a kind of intellectual allergy to the word "bureaucracy" that suppresses his critical faculties.

And dealing with boredom is something nobody learns how to do anymore. We have constant entertainment in our pockets with mobile phones, social media, and streaming.

When I go to the gym I sit in the sauna for 30 minutes just doing... nothing. Just sitting. No earbuds, no phone in hand. I'm usually the only one like this. I get asked how I can stand it. It's just normal to me. I think about stuff I need to do. I map out the next day, or the rest of the day, or next week. I reflect on last week. My mind always finds something to think about.

Re: Frustration Tolerance: An Essential for Surviving Large Orgs

#33

Post by stouset »

hansvm wrote: post #8
rini17 wrote: post #6

"no biggie, it's just like learning to navigate a busy city" Such insidious reframing with absolutely no mention of burnout possibility. Yuck.

That phrase resonated with me. Do you not get burnout when you spend too much time in a busy city? God forbid you'd have to navigate one 8-5 every weekday.

Did you know that some people actually choose to live in cities?

Personally I can’t wrap my head around the continuous boredom of living in rural areas or suburbia, where anything interesting is an hour or more of wasted life in a round-trip car ride. Even fetching groceries is a half hour there and back instead of a few minute walk. Crazy!

Different people have different norms, different preferences, and are acclimated to different environments.

Re: Frustration Tolerance: An Essential for Surviving Large Orgs

#35

Post by fdpee »

OutOfHere wrote: post #19
isoprophlex wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah... same. Power to those who can function in highly frustrating environments, but for me the only winning move is to not play the game in the first place.

So what's the alternative?

Not being a software dev for one

Re: Frustration Tolerance: An Essential for Surviving Large Orgs

#36

Post by spokaneplumb »

jancsika wrote: post #26
nateburke wrote: post #10

"I learned that the world of men as it exists today is a bureaucracy. This is an obvious truth, of course, though it is also one the ignorance of which causes great suffering. “But moreover, I discovered, in the only way that a man ever really learns anything important, the real skill that is required to succeed in a bureaucracy. I mean really succeed: do good, make a difference, serve. I discovered the key. This key…

> "The underlying bureaucratic key is the ability to deal with boredom." The key to excellence in any human endeavor is the ability to deal with boredom. Wallace was a serious tennis player for awhile, surely he must know this. It's as if he (and most of HN) has a kind of intellectual allergy to the word "bureaucracy" that suppresses his critical faculties.

I think every time I’ve been (or even been moving toward) excellent at something, it’s because I found very little or none of it boring. Even very-focused drilling and such, or studying “boring” material (it wasn’t, to me—I didn’t have to deal with boredom to progress!)

Office work and dealing with bureaucracy stands out as something that lots of people find themselves doing and almost all of them find unpleasant, including experiencing tons of it as very boring.

Re: Frustration Tolerance: An Essential for Surviving Large Orgs

#37

Post by elcritch »

nateburke wrote: post #10

"I learned that the world of men as it exists today is a bureaucracy. This is an obvious truth, of course, though it is also one the ignorance of which causes great suffering. “But moreover, I discovered, in the only way that a man ever really learns anything important, the real skill that is required to succeed in a bureaucracy. I mean really succeed: do good, make a difference, serve. I discovered the key. This key…

This resonates so deeply with me as an ADHDer. In the sense that I abhor it and have become clinically depressed in such situations.

It’s also why “evolutionarily” the farm-and-plan neurotypes became so numerically prevalent over the forage-and-explore ADHD neurotypes with the advent of farming and modern society.

That’s my working hypothesis at least. Also makes me think that’s why beer and alcohol were such an important aspect in Egyptian and other ancient societies. Perhaps believing that is just what helps me sleep at night having a semi-disfuctional prefrontal cortex. ;)

Still it fascinates me that ADHD neurotypes persist at a stubborn 1/20 ratio in almost all large societies even in cultures such as Japan’s where one might assume ADHD traits would be heavily discouraged. As in ADHDers are the required lubricant to keep the bureaucratic machines from rusting up and so persist.

As a descriptive counterpoint look at the imagination of the “perfect bureaucracy” in Star Trek: the Borg. The only way they progress technologically is by assimilating new peoples. I hope someone pursue this as a post-graduate thesis at some point.

Re: Frustration Tolerance: An Essential for Surviving Large Orgs

#38

Post by c22 »

SoftTalker wrote: post #31
jancsika wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "The underlying bureaucratic key is the ability to deal with boredom." The key to excellence in any human endeavor is the ability to deal with boredom. Wallace was a serious tennis player for awhile, surely he must know this. It's as if he (and most of HN) has a kind of intellectual allergy to the word "bureaucracy" that suppresses his critical faculties.

And dealing with boredom is something nobody learns how to do anymore. We have constant entertainment in our pockets with mobile phones, social media, and streaming. When I go to the gym I sit in the sauna for 30 minutes just doing... nothing. Just sitting. No earbuds, no phone in hand. I'm usually the only one like this. I get asked how I can stand it. It's just normal to me. I think about stuff I need to do. I map…

People are bringing their phones into the sauna?

Re: Frustration Tolerance: An Essential for Surviving Large Orgs

#39

Post by CharlesW »

gffrd wrote: post #9
CharlesW wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TFA doesn't say that "frustration tolerant" people tolerate problems , but that they tolerate frustration as they fix those problems "without succumbing to negative emotions or counterproductive behaviors". I was far more frustration intolerant earlier in my career, part of which I can now attribute to undiagnosed AuDHD. Although I can't say that I've mastered frustration tolerance, I've learned to moderate it to the…

I’d be interested to hear how you’ve learned to moderate your response to frustration more effectively. Practices? Medication? Etc.

> I’d be interested to hear how you’ve learned to moderate your response to frustration more effectively.

I loved @Schiendelman’s answer, and I believe that prioritizing mental and physical health is a prerequisite for tolerating frustration effectively. For me, it's been more about a change in practices and perspective.

For example, I never react in the moment to professional frustration beyond listening and asking sincere questions. I've learned that I need time to respond, and even to consider whether I should respond at all.

If I find myself awake at 4am ruminating about an aspect of my company or product, I remind myself that I may be taking it (and myself) a bit too seriously, and reassure myself that it can safely be tabled until tomorrow.

There's wisdom in the Serenity Prayer: "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."

Re: Frustration Tolerance: An Essential for Surviving Large Orgs

#40

Post by brendan0powers »

One of the things I often find missing in articles and discussion of these topics here on HN is the understanding that different people are really quite different.

Articles or comments like this often read like moral judgements. You should be X to succeed. Being X works for me, and it should for you. If X doesn't work for you, it's your problem. There's usually little considering that achieving X may be significantly easier for some than others, or that there may be other ways of achieving a persons goals that work better for them.

This article is better than most in that it has a well defined scope, large organizations. I don't have any major problems with the content, other than I'd like some more time spent on wether the model they are applying is really as applicable to the situation as they claim.

I must admit to some bias, as I do no do well in large organizations, and the description of frustration in the article doesn't resonate with my experience of frustration at these orgs. I left the last place I worked because it was bad for my mental health. In many ways it was a dream job. It payed extremely well, I liked the people I worked with, and it wasn't that hard. Eventually though, I just couldn't do it anymore, and left for a small startup. I didn't realize how bad it was until I noticed I could still feel myself physically unwinding three months later.

I've been at this company for three years, and still love working here. It's absolutely not frustration free. I am however, much better equipped to handle the kinds of frustrations I face at this new company.

The author of the article says:

"It’s like learning to navigate a bustling city. At first, the traffic, noise, and crowds seem like overwhelming obstacles. But over time, you see these elements as essential aspects of urban life."

I've experienced this first hand after moving to NYC, and it's true, but it's also important to remember that some people just don't like cities, and that's Ok.

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