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UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

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Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've chosen 90% margin (cost + 1000%). Semicon tool builders (my industry) have margins around 50% (cost + 100%). This is considered high margin manufacturing work. To match United Health's margins we'd need to raise prices by 5x.

I agree, but we can't talk about "over" without talking about where the line is.

Fundamentally, you have a pretty good point here, since the system we have has two halves that are fundamentally at odds:

One part "free market -- maximize your profits as much as you can and get rewarded by a skyrocketing share price!"

And one part, unspoken except in the PR BS put out by the insurance companies, "Try to improve the health of patients and have them not die!"

The only way the two can coexist at all is if someone draws some lines like you are suggesting. I know that there are some (probably easily manipulated) laws stating that X% of premiums have to be "spent on care" and if they get too high overall margins on your group, they have to give your employer a rebate. Of course, who knows whether you'll see that money.

If we just say "maximize your profits" (and indeed, shareholders 'should' sue them if they don't) then it's obvious that morally bankrupt scum that runs all these insurers would 100% extort people for 1000% profits on lifesaving drugs. It's the most logical course of action! People will pay infinity dollars to save their own lives/their loved ones, so let's soak them!

If it's not obvious, I believe that overall the "free market" part of this system is a failed experiment that should be abolished immediately, and not just because I want all of these companies' sickening, greedy executives to go straight to hell (where Brian Thompson is burning today).

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#32
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I'm going to say is that Optum Specialty Pharmacy is the sole source that UHC will accept for a lot of special drugs. For example UHC offers insurance for IVF including a separate cap for medications, but if you use their insurance you have to order through their subsidiary Optum Specialty Pharmacy and the prices triple or quadruple over MSRP if you buy from OSP using insurance versus if you pay cash. They also w…

UHC double-dips because they own Optum even though Optum is "independent". It's fucking disgusting. How they were allowed to buy Optum and didn't have every regulator in the country on the case is beyond me. I $truggle to think how $omething like thi$ wa$ allowed to happen. Bastards.

My wife had to quit seeing her doctor of many years a couple of years ago because as Optum has been devouring practices in our area, they stuck her with a surprise bill almost a decade ago and then fired her as a patient without providing even a statement. Now that they own her doctor she can no longer go to that practice even though she was a paying patient for many years.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#33
post #8

I don’t understand how an insurance company can overcharge consumers. Isn’t their job to pay what pharmacies and hospitals charge? Do insurance companies get money if they approve the overcharged prices? If so how? I thought their revenue was the premiums which are fixed. Is the extra money because people are forced to pay everything after the little the insurance company pays?

UnitedHealth is not an insurance company. They own an insurance company as well as OptumRx, a pharmacy benefit manager, which is described at the very top of this article.

Correct - they aren't an insurance company, they are a racketeering organization committing fraud under the guise of being a "healthcare" company that is vertically integrated with every facet of the healthcare supply chain.

All this on top of being a for-profit corporation whose mission is quite literally to enrich shareholders, instead of helping patients navigate the healthcare system.

RICO them.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#34
post #8

I don’t understand how an insurance company can overcharge consumers. Isn’t their job to pay what pharmacies and hospitals charge? Do insurance companies get money if they approve the overcharged prices? If so how? I thought their revenue was the premiums which are fixed. Is the extra money because people are forced to pay everything after the little the insurance company pays?

UnitedHealth is not an insurance company. They own an insurance company as well as OptumRx, a pharmacy benefit manager, which is described at the very top of this article.

Can you explain how discount cards (like GoodRx) work?

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#35
post #7

Nothing is shocking about the insurance industry anymore since they’ve been pulling this kind of thing for years. To me the most shocking thing is the people who defend them. I understand the drive to make money and build huge businesses: what confuses me is that we treat human health the same as things that don’t directly impact the health of people. It seems to me that there are endless opportunities to get insanel…

Setting aside human health and agreeing that it should be outside capitalist endeavor would be incredibly damaging to human health. I can hardly imagine any policy that would reduce life years more than that.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#36
post #8

I don’t understand how an insurance company can overcharge consumers. Isn’t their job to pay what pharmacies and hospitals charge? Do insurance companies get money if they approve the overcharged prices? If so how? I thought their revenue was the premiums which are fixed. Is the extra money because people are forced to pay everything after the little the insurance company pays?

UnitedHealth is not an insurance company. They own an insurance company as well as OptumRx, a pharmacy benefit manager, which is described at the very top of this article.

They also are the largest employer of doctors in the United States.

They've essentially constructed their own single-payer health care provider, but instead of being paid for by tax dollars it's a publicly traded company whose primary goal is to increase shareholder value.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#37
post #7

Nothing is shocking about the insurance industry anymore since they’ve been pulling this kind of thing for years. To me the most shocking thing is the people who defend them. I understand the drive to make money and build huge businesses: what confuses me is that we treat human health the same as things that don’t directly impact the health of people. It seems to me that there are endless opportunities to get insanel…

I don't particularly care if health insurance is public or private.

DIRECT health care labor costs (doctor's, nurses, etc) are ~40-60% of TOTAL healthcare spending.

Smart people try to figure out ways to make our system better every day. If there was a silver bullet, we'd have already taken it.

Health insurance profits are ~1.2% of total health care spending, the cost of running it is approximately ~4% more.

It's always going to cost SOMETHING to run - whether you move it to the private or public sector is largely a rounding error.

If you take all those insurance jobs and pop them into the Federal Government - you're unlikely to see much efficiency gains (the most pro-medicare articles state it's 37% more efficient - that's an improvement of ~1.5% in total spending).

UHC had a net margin of 6.1% in 2024.

Sure, if all 6.1% of that went to spending instead of profits - health care would be slightly better.

But it's mostly a rounding error. Private health insurance profits are only ~1.2% of total spending.

Maybe you're focused on a ~6.1% margin, or ~$60B in total profits.

You're not going to get substantially better outcomes by simply having ~1.2%-2.7% more money to spend.

You'd need to bring down the actual cost of healthcare substantially - which isn't going to happen unless you pay doctor's and nurses way less money.

Pharmaceuticals are only about 9% of total US healthcare spending - even if you nationalize that (never going to happen) - you're still not getting substantially better / cheaper outcomes.

Profits on pharmaceuticals is The only way you're getting significantly cheaper service is by reducing your biggest cost significantly - i.e. paying less for direct patient healthcare (doctor's, nurses, etc), and that's probably not a great strategy for getting better outcomes.

Who knows? NHS pays doctors dirt, and their system isn't obviously worse than ours. Some people think it's way better, others way worse.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#38
post #8

I don’t understand how an insurance company can overcharge consumers. Isn’t their job to pay what pharmacies and hospitals charge? Do insurance companies get money if they approve the overcharged prices? If so how? I thought their revenue was the premiums which are fixed. Is the extra money because people are forced to pay everything after the little the insurance company pays?

[deleted]

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#39
post #7

Nothing is shocking about the insurance industry anymore since they’ve been pulling this kind of thing for years. To me the most shocking thing is the people who defend them. I understand the drive to make money and build huge businesses: what confuses me is that we treat human health the same as things that don’t directly impact the health of people. It seems to me that there are endless opportunities to get insanel…

The incentive drives them to do sht like that.

Re: UnitedHealth overcharged cancer patients for drugs by over 1,000%

#40
I think some critiques of American health insurance are simplistic, but this truly seems very bad. From the report:

> "Higher markups can also result in larger internal transfer payments from health plans to affiliated pharmacies, which may allow vertically integrated PBM-pharmacy-insurer entities to retain revenue and profits while formally satisfying the insurers' medical loss ratio ("MLR" ) requirements, but without providing the clinical care and quality improvements that the MLR rule seeks to promote. In addition, higher markups can result in significant patient cost sharing requirements because reimbursement rates are often correlated with point-of-sale prices, which can influence how much patients are required to pay."

In other words. Health insurance firms have capped profits in the US. But in this case one conglomerate can own both an insurer and a PBM, so it can just overcharge consumers for insurance and then launder its profits through the PBM.

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