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World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

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Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#31

Post by WorkerBee28474 »

ungreased0675 wrote: post #15

Would it be unthinkable to just NOT have bright lights pointed at the sky all night? Could they still do this project with severe restrictions on light emissions? If there’s some reason it absolutely must include hundreds of outdoor sodium vapor lights then build it somewhere else.

> Would it be unthinkable to just NOT have bright lights pointed at the sky all night?

That's possible, and directed/shielded lighting is commercially available.

However, the project's critics have already said that no plan the project comes up with will be good enough - “Even if [AES] do a perfect job, using perfect lights that probably don’t even exist and perfect shielding, there will be an impact and that will be significant [0]

[0] https://www.science.org/content/article/chilean-energy-megap...

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#32

Post by adriand »

kortilla wrote: post #29

Headline is dramatic but misleading. Essentially the entire 7/10 of the planet in the ocean has skies as dark as this. Clarity significantly reduces the footprint, but there are massive chunks of mountain ranges untouched by human development in both hemispheres that would be just as clear as here. If clear skies are important enough to block a new development, they should just unlock some land in the Himalayas or Ro…

> they should just unlock some land in the Himalayas or Rockies to replace this observatory

That "just" is sure doing a lot of work in this suggestion.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#33

Post by tw04 »

kortilla wrote: post #29

Headline is dramatic but misleading. Essentially the entire 7/10 of the planet in the ocean has skies as dark as this. Clarity significantly reduces the footprint, but there are massive chunks of mountain ranges untouched by human development in both hemispheres that would be just as clear as here. If clear skies are important enough to block a new development, they should just unlock some land in the Himalayas or Ro…

Who is paying for this move and all the requisite supporting infrastructure? You aren’t just dropping it from a helicopter and calling it a day.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#34

Post by seattle_spring »

kortilla wrote: post #29

Headline is dramatic but misleading. Essentially the entire 7/10 of the planet in the ocean has skies as dark as this. Clarity significantly reduces the footprint, but there are massive chunks of mountain ranges untouched by human development in both hemispheres that would be just as clear as here. If clear skies are important enough to block a new development, they should just unlock some land in the Himalayas or Ro…

I recommend reading up on why these observatories and telescopes are where they are in the Atacama. It’s not just about the lack of light pollution, it’s a specific geography that “smoooths out” the air. Something about the high elevation prominence coming up directly from the coast creates a unique situation that allows for longer exposures, something that is less possible out in the open ocean. The only other comparable place are the high peaks of Hawaii, but these are mostly off limits due to native protections.

Destroying an aspect of the dark skies in Chile will absolutely hurt astronomy. No, they would not just be able to move their operations out onto a different mountain range or into the open ocean.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#35

Post by seattle_spring »

hackingonempty wrote: post #2

If you were wondering if there was any issue even less important to Americans than the lives of pedestrians and cyclists, it is dark skies.

Which is too bad, because it takes a special kind of heartless, empathy-lacking ghoul to disregard such things that make life on this Earth worth living to so many people.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#36

Post by gmueckl »

kortilla wrote: post #29

Headline is dramatic but misleading. Essentially the entire 7/10 of the planet in the ocean has skies as dark as this. Clarity significantly reduces the footprint, but there are massive chunks of mountain ranges untouched by human development in both hemispheres that would be just as clear as here. If clear skies are important enough to block a new development, they should just unlock some land in the Himalayas or Ro…

This spot in the Atacama desert isn't special for it's lack of light pollution alone. The sky is rarely, if ever covered in clouds or haze. And the temperature gradient in the air has a shape that prevents random atmospheric distortions that would make long term exposures blurry. This combination of properties is exceedingly rare on Earth.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#37

Post by Tepix »

kortilla wrote: post #29

Headline is dramatic but misleading. Essentially the entire 7/10 of the planet in the ocean has skies as dark as this. Clarity significantly reduces the footprint, but there are massive chunks of mountain ranges untouched by human development in both hemispheres that would be just as clear as here. If clear skies are important enough to block a new development, they should just unlock some land in the Himalayas or Ro…

This place has an elevation of 5000m and the air is super dry.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#38

Post by aragilar »

WorkerBee28474 wrote: post #31
ungreased0675 wrote: post #15

Would it be unthinkable to just NOT have bright lights pointed at the sky all night? Could they still do this project with severe restrictions on light emissions? If there’s some reason it absolutely must include hundreds of outdoor sodium vapor lights then build it somewhere else.

> Would it be unthinkable to just NOT have bright lights pointed at the sky all night? That's possible, and directed/shielded lighting is commercially available. However, the project's critics have already said that no plan the project comes up with will be good enough - “Even if [AES] do a perfect job, using perfect lights that probably don’t even exist and perfect shielding, there will be an impact and that will be…

The plan of "don't build a major industrial centre 5km from the best site for optical astronomy in the world, build it somewhere else" seems like a perfect viable one to me.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#39

Post by 8bitsrule »

Not sure this would be affected:

The Vera Rubin scope, which cost $600+ million, will see first light this July. It's capable of creating a map of the entire available sky every few days. Containing 40B objects, several times more than all previous sky surveys combined.

Half of those images are already threatened by constellations of comm satellites. Another concern is spy satellite imaging. https://archive.is/RzCNI#selection-779.4-779.14

So what compels AES, a US power company, to build a facility there, in all the world ... which would pump out that much pollution?

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#40

Post by Daub »

When I lived in the Welsh countryside, there were occasional nights where I could not see my hand in front of my face. The requirements were that it was new moon, and that there was slight fog. We also lived deep in a valley, which helped. I had great fun navigating my way to the local pub in complete darkness.

The odd thing is that when I recount that experience, some people refuse to believe me. Of course they are all city dwellers.

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