Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#31

Post by desert_rue » Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 9:29 AM UTC

codedokode wrote: post #15

I don't think "discriminating" is a good term here. If the case was "you do the same amount of work for the same amount of money as our foreign workers, but we don't like the color of your skin" it is one thing. But if the case is "we don't like you because you do less work than our foreign workers and ask more money for it and on top of that you don't want to move into the office", it is a completely different thing…

Citation on the non Indian workers doing less work?

Also the workers on a visa make can be deported if they lose their job. That makes them dependent on their employer to stay in the US. That makes the visa holders less likely to ask for wages at the going rate or to vote with their feet to go to another company that would treat and pay them better. How is that not discrimination?

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#32

Post by gorbachev » Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 9:33 AM UTC

bastard_op wrote: post #12

Cognizant, Tata, Infosys, the list goes on, the all have been gaming the system for 30 years now to funnel people to the US like Mexican Coyoties. They're not in the game to hire US people, it's all about funneling as many Southeast Asians as possible here. Talking to many friends over years having been through it to come here, I view it a bit like old (like 18th century old) indentured servitude of Europeans trying…

The frustrating thing about all of this is that Cognizant didn't really get in trouble for blatantly abusing the H1B program, but for discriminating against non-Indians.

If they'd just keep their non-Indian workers happy, they could've, in all likelihood, continued abusing the H1B program forever.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#33

Post by dartharva » Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 9:39 AM UTC

29athrowaway wrote: post #27

th0ma5 wrote: post #6

The next administration's think tank's plan to solve this is to eliminate the program altogether. There was also talk in a video I think from Jamelle Bouie of the NYT talking about these groups going further and declaring anyone that subsequently went on to be naturalized while living here under these and other programs to have their citizenship revoked. The idea being that only applying for citizenship under the slo…

The plan to make raise the minimum salary for H1B so that it cannot be used to save money. And to slow down the application process, increase fees and force people to rely on premium processing more.

You know what'd be better? Put up H1B approvals on auction instead of handing them out in a lottery.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#34

Post by p_l » Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 9:47 AM UTC

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #13

paxys wrote: post #9

Shocking absolutely no one. It is no secret that outsourcing companies like Cognizant, Infosys, TCS, HCL, Wipro, Accenture, E&Y have been openly abusing the H-1B visa and the immigration system as a whole for decades. Lawsuits and fines are just a cost of doing business for them. Meanwhile the debate surrounding it always devolves into "pro immigration" and "anti immigration" with the same generic talking points and…

In contemporary western society, if you can find a way to label someone as racist, you win every argument. There is no recourse.

If you can't continue arguing in good faith when someone defends WITCH company with "you're just racist", you are unprepared for the argument.

Because if anything, the sweatshops are even more exploitative towards (majorly) Indians than locals in whichever place they decided suck dry.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#35

Post by jltsiren » Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 9:49 AM UTC

29athrowaway wrote: post #27

th0ma5 wrote: post #6

The next administration's think tank's plan to solve this is to eliminate the program altogether. There was also talk in a video I think from Jamelle Bouie of the NYT talking about these groups going further and declaring anyone that subsequently went on to be naturalized while living here under these and other programs to have their citizenship revoked. The idea being that only applying for citizenship under the slo…

The plan to make raise the minimum salary for H1B so that it cannot be used to save money. And to slow down the application process, increase fees and force people to rely on premium processing more.

Making the process itself harder can be counterproductive.

Every system will be gamed. The ones gaming the system often stand to gain more than those the system is intended for. A visa program for skilled/talented individuals is supposed to select people who could find good opportunities elsewhere. Getting a job in the US is not a big deal for them. On the other hand, an average person who somehow manages to qualify could improve their life greatly by coming to the US. Especially if they are from a developing country.

If you add bureaucratic requirements to the visa process, make it last longer, and make it less predictable, you are effectively telling the skilled and talented people to go elsewhere. Then you get more people trying to game the system and hoping for a lucky win.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#36

Post by p_l » Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 9:51 AM UTC

codedokode wrote: post #15

I don't think "discriminating" is a good term here. If the case was "you do the same amount of work for the same amount of money as our foreign workers, but we don't like the color of your skin" it is one thing. But if the case is "we don't like you because you do less work than our foreign workers and ask more money for it and on top of that you don't want to move into the office", it is a completely different thing…

the WITCH playbook is to parade a competent team in front of the executive signing the deal then replace them with untrained people seduced into their sweatshops with promises of riches (but ending up in sweatshop).

Local teams hired or acquired are also part of the dog&pony show, H-1B and similar visa deals are used to keep some of the "middle" and up workers on a leash.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#37

Post by simoncion » Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 9:53 AM UTC

dartharva wrote: post #22

th0ma5 wrote: post #6

The next administration's think tank's plan to solve this is to eliminate the program altogether. There was also talk in a video I think from Jamelle Bouie of the NYT talking about these groups going further and declaring anyone that subsequently went on to be naturalized while living here under these and other programs to have their citizenship revoked. The idea being that only applying for citizenship under the slo…

H1Bs from India today face waitlists going over 132 years for a green card. They have zero scope of getting a citizenship in USA in the first place.

And yet, I've worked with H1-Bs who get their green card who are much, much younger than 132 years. Something doesn't add up here.

Are you perhaps relying on a number that has been inflated by relatively-recent staffing shortages?

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#38

Post by jkaplowitz » Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 10:01 AM UTC

bastard_op wrote: post #12

Cognizant, Tata, Infosys, the list goes on, the all have been gaming the system for 30 years now to funnel people to the US like Mexican Coyoties. They're not in the game to hire US people, it's all about funneling as many Southeast Asians as possible here. Talking to many friends over years having been through it to come here, I view it a bit like old (like 18th century old) indentured servitude of Europeans trying…

> drop an anchor kid to force naturalization

This doesn’t work the way many assume. Yes, it’s true, the kid ends up a citizen by birth. But the kid can’t sponsor the parent for permanent residence until the kid is 21 years old, there are financial requirements the kid has to meet as a sponsor, processing the application still takes at least at least a year or two after that, citizenship takes additional years (usually 5 or more), and there are many reasons why either permanent residence or citizenship can be denied.

Everything in the previous sentence assumes the laws on this topic aren’t tightened further in the next couple of decades, which they very well might be.

Maybe the parent simply has a goal to ensure that their kid has the opportunities that come with US citizenship. That part does work. And sure, I say fair enough, especially in the context we’re discussing where the parent is coming and working and paying taxes. But having a kid in the US is in no way a quick, easy, or guaranteed path to naturalization for the parent.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#39

Post by jltsiren » Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 10:14 AM UTC

simoncion wrote: post #37

dartharva wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1Bs from India today face waitlists going over 132 years for a green card. They have zero scope of getting a citizenship in USA in the first place.

And yet, I've worked with H1-Bs who get their green card who are much, much younger than 132 years. Something doesn't add up here. Are you perhaps relying on a number that has been inflated by relatively-recent staffing shortages?

Getting an employment-based green card normally takes a few years. That has increased by a year or two due to staffing shortages and backlogs caused by covid-era policies. But the real issue for immigrants from India (and to a lesser extent from China, Mexico, and Philippines) is the 7% country cap. Those who qualify for EB-1 can skip the line and get their green cards in a semi-reasonable time. Those in EB-2 and lower priority categories are out of luck.

Re: Jury finds Cognizant discriminated against US workers

#40

Post by Saline9515 » Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 10:16 AM UTC

bastard_op wrote: post #12

Cognizant, Tata, Infosys, the list goes on, the all have been gaming the system for 30 years now to funnel people to the US like Mexican Coyoties. They're not in the game to hire US people, it's all about funneling as many Southeast Asians as possible here. Talking to many friends over years having been through it to come here, I view it a bit like old (like 18th century old) indentured servitude of Europeans trying…

It's not limited to the US. Here in Latvia, which is one of the poorest EU country, we have seen an influx of Indian citizens willing to emigrate. Many will work for little more than 1 or 2€ per hour, and come here by bribing emigration officiers or paying fees to local shady schools that act as visa mills.