Pushing 40 and still have not owned a car. Hopefully this will be the future of Europe instead of replacing ICE cars with EVs.
The electric shock behind Europe's stuttering EV future
31–40 of 68 posts
Re: The electric shock behind Europe's stuttering EV future
#32> The skills built up by European carmakers over decades are simply not directly transferrable. Germany does have a giant, excellent chemistry industry. > China's interest in batteries is not a recent trend. It has been investing in their production for many, many years. It has been attempting to dominate not just the production of cells but also of the cathodes and anodes that go inside them - not to mention the che…
> Consistent, long term industrial policy is very effective. Yes. This is what kills the US in rare earths, cobalt, gallium, etc. US mines shut down when the price goes down. Sometimes they restart when the price goes up. Sometimes they don't. All this churn makes the business unprofitable in the US.[1] [1] https://mpmaterials.com/articles/mp-materials-reports-third-...
China was refining rare earths without much concern for their own environment: they were basically ****ing in their backyard to provide the west with cheaper rare earths to work with.
This of course is unsustainable, and should have been stopped earlier by either Chinese or western governments with some concern for the environment as well rewarding bad self-destructive behavior.
Re: The electric shock behind Europe's stuttering EV future
#33this seems mostly about VW, a company that is both a huge presence in the EU economy and probably irrevocably f---ed VW is slowly vanishing from US markets (EV or ICE) and tried to enter the Chinese market only to get the crap kicked out of it I'd mention Stellantis which is also mostly an EU company now, but they are so screwed at this point it isn't even sporting
> tried to enter the Chinese market only to get the crap kicked out of it That's a massive rewriting of history. VW was one of the earliest foreign automotive manufacturers to enter the Chinese market. In the 1990s and 2000s, the Volkswagen Jetta was China's Model T. And until 2023, VW was the top selling car brand in China. And that was the crux of the issue - VW grew complacent by leveraging "Made in Germany" brand…
> VW grew complacent by leveraging "Made in Germany" branding to sell in China
Designed in Germany, almost all VWs sold in China (including black Audis government officials loved) were made in China under three 49/51 JVs (with VW as the minority owner). The majority owners in tern graduated with VW technology/know-how and combined with EV tech to sell under their own brands, although not as successful as BYD. Even BYD had its own 49/51 JV with Mercedes for a decade.
The only foreign auto manufacturer allowed to operate in China outside of a minority JV is Tesla.
Re: The electric shock behind Europe's stuttering EV future
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
Industrial policy will bring you up to a point, and apparently, no further. Anyway, it was wildly successful in Japan, Germany, and the US. Up until the time it stopped working. It has been arguably less successful in China, but still good enough to create massive change.
I don't really disagree. You need, sorry, effective capitalism and a legal structure underneath the policy but that doesn't replace entrepreneurship and broader cultural norms.
The problem is that industrial policy seems to be incompatible with effective capitalism and universal rule of law to some extent.
It's not very clear (at least to me) how and why. But it never seems to be a positive thing after some point, instead, it seems to have very negative impacts on more developed countries.
Re: The electric shock behind Europe's stuttering EV future
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Consistent, long term industrial policy is very effective. Yes. This is what kills the US in rare earths, cobalt, gallium, etc. US mines shut down when the price goes down. Sometimes they restart when the price goes up. Sometimes they don't. All this churn makes the business unprofitable in the US.[1] [1] https://mpmaterials.com/articles/mp-materials-reports-third-...
You're ignoring the fact that we also don't want oceans of toxic sludge left after the mining. This is not the case in China.
The Mountain Pass mine solved that problem years ago. What they couldn't solve was making money during periods when China cut rare earth prices.
Re: The electric shock behind Europe's stuttering EV future
#36> The skills built up by European carmakers over decades are simply not directly transferrable. Germany does have a giant, excellent chemistry industry. > China's interest in batteries is not a recent trend. It has been investing in their production for many, many years. It has been attempting to dominate not just the production of cells but also of the cathodes and anodes that go inside them - not to mention the che…
Angela Merkel's legacy has not been good.. https://archive.md/N3RWo
What right wing news source is that? They paint a pretty one sided picture here. Some truths but not all. Germany was on its way to be energy independent with wind but that was blocked by Merkel and right leaning governments since 2010. Without that intervention we could be big in wind and having a lot of people work in that sector. Instead they turned back to gas and coal.
The dependence on cars and the incompetence to get excellent on software are a huge problem here in Germany. But the educated part of the people here saw that coming.
The will to change is what is dragging us down in Germany.
Re: The electric shock behind Europe's stuttering EV future
#37> The skills built up by European carmakers over decades are simply not directly transferrable. Germany does have a giant, excellent chemistry industry. > China's interest in batteries is not a recent trend. It has been investing in their production for many, many years. It has been attempting to dominate not just the production of cells but also of the cathodes and anodes that go inside them - not to mention the che…
China is of no concern to Europe or the US. Most of their tech is stolen or trickles down from innovation elsewhere. It is unlikely China will find success in the US given the sentiment (antiChinese sentiment is rampant in most of the US). Also, there are many legislations in place that would prevent it. I will mention though that the US and Europe need to get their act together. Too slow on EVs (it took an outsider…
> Most of their tech is stolen or trickles down from innovation elsewhere
Overheard at a battery conference: western battery suppliers are actually copying (or in your words, stealing) the Chinese electrolyte formulas and other designs.
Great artists steal, the US and Europe play the same game.
Re: The electric shock behind Europe's stuttering EV future
#38Pushing 40 and still have not owned a car. Hopefully this will be the future of Europe instead of replacing ICE cars with EVs.
You have probably lived in a big city all this time, which most Europeans have not.
Re: The electric shock behind Europe's stuttering EV future
#39Europe doesn't make the best cars, USA doesn't make the best planes, Japan doesn't make the best electronics. What a time to live in. Anyway, that's all fine. Those are all huge and diverse economies, will re-group and stabilize.
I still think Europe makes the best cars. But being the best is never enough to also sell high volumes.
Europe is stagnating due to an ever-increasing set of regulations, higher taxes (partially required to enforce those regulations and a shrinking labor force) and specially the effect that those have on the motivation of the most skilled workers: killing it.
Me and my wife have tried starting a couple of businesses, but it’s incredibly complicated to navigate and deal with German bureaucracy, and all the effort gets awarded with an incredibly high tax rate of around 50%.
So lots of smart people in my environment are actually walking the path backwards and they have either stopped side projects or simply started to reduce working hours. Either that or just moving to other countries like Switzerland, Singapur or the US.
The situation is even worse in Netherlands, France or Spain.
The taxation system in those countries creates negative incentives as it makes you feel punished if you become economically successful with a new product or idea. I really think it should be the complete opposite. And it’s not a matter of lack of budget for public services: public education, healthcare and justice are usually covered with around 30% of the public expenditure.
Re: The electric shock behind Europe's stuttering EV future
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
> tried to enter the Chinese market only to get the crap kicked out of it That's a massive rewriting of history. VW was one of the earliest foreign automotive manufacturers to enter the Chinese market. In the 1990s and 2000s, the Volkswagen Jetta was China's Model T. And until 2023, VW was the top selling car brand in China. And that was the crux of the issue - VW grew complacent by leveraging "Made in Germany" brand…
Did people in the US really stop buying VWs because of the diesel emissisions stuff? Almost nobody in the US buys diesel passenger cars anyway. I could not care less about a cheat on roughly zero percent of cars sold. Diesel emissions could be totally unregulated and it would not make any difference -- nobody buys them anyway.
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