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Protecting undersea internet cables is a tech nightmare

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Re: Protecting undersea internet cables is a tech nightmare

#31

Post by dingnuts »

the_af wrote: post #20
ronsor wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why was it so surprising? Society as a whole is only functional because most people are uninterested in causing mayhem for no reason.

Vandalism of public phones (when they existed) was pretty common in my city. And garbage bins in public spaces get destroyed all the time for no reason. Everything that isn't nailed down and very robust gets destroyed or stolen. Infrastructure things related to water pipes (at the buildings level) gets stolen, too (happened in my building recently). Everything that can be resold as raw materials gets stolen.

this is cultural. not every city is as you describe

Re: Protecting undersea internet cables is a tech nightmare

#32

Post by drsim »

shahzaibmushtaq wrote: post #15

We need a new global policy that is signed by every country (if it is possible) to protect undersea internet cables.

We have the Convention for the Protection of Submarine Telegraph Cables from 1884. Doesn't appear to have been needed until now so is relatively untested.

Re: Protecting undersea internet cables is a tech nightmare

#33

Post by fpoling »

blindriver wrote: post #4

It’s impossible to protect these cables so the only thing you can do is build in massive redundancy. Strategically it is probably cheaper to lay down many dozens of these cables in different locations than expect to protect them

One ship with an anchor on the bottom can destroy 100 cables just as well as one.

Re: Protecting undersea internet cables is a tech nightmare

#34

Post by the_af »

dingnuts wrote: post #31
the_af wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vandalism of public phones (when they existed) was pretty common in my city. And garbage bins in public spaces get destroyed all the time for no reason. Everything that isn't nailed down and very robust gets destroyed or stolen. Infrastructure things related to water pipes (at the buildings level) gets stolen, too (happened in my building recently). Everything that can be resold as raw materials gets stolen.

this is cultural. not every city is as you describe

Oh, I'm aware it's cultural.

I was just arguing it wasn't unreasonable for telegraph skeptics to believe vandalism would be common.

Re: Protecting undersea internet cables is a tech nightmare

#35

Post by the_af »

compootr wrote: post #23
the_af wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vandalism of public phones (when they existed) was pretty common in my city. And garbage bins in public spaces get destroyed all the time for no reason. Everything that isn't nailed down and very robust gets destroyed or stolen. Infrastructure things related to water pipes (at the buildings level) gets stolen, too (happened in my building recently). Everything that can be resold as raw materials gets stolen.

For a cable at the bottom of the ocean, there is a barrier to entry though. For theft in the city, the thing being stolen is pretty easily accessible, and requires much less thought than getting some kind of submersible and going to the bottom of the ocean

Definitely. I was only discussing the telegraph and its skeptics.

Re: Protecting undersea internet cables is a tech nightmare

#36

Post by ajross »

vasco wrote: post #30
ronsor wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why was it so surprising? Society as a whole is only functional because most people are uninterested in causing mayhem for no reason.

Because it takes 1 person, in an isolated spot to ruin a whole chunk of a network. Even though society as a whole works, there's things where one person can easily mess it up for potentially millions of people. So even if that person would have to be a big statistical anomaly, they'll exist.

> Because it takes 1 person, in an isolated spot to ruin a whole chunk of a network.

In point of fact no chunks of the network were ruined at all. Dynamic routing was a design point way back when DARPA funded IPv4, and for exactly this reason.

Re: Protecting undersea internet cables is a tech nightmare

#37

Post by geepytee »

mrandish wrote: post #22
blindriver wrote: post #4

It’s impossible to protect these cables so the only thing you can do is build in massive redundancy. Strategically it is probably cheaper to lay down many dozens of these cables in different locations than expect to protect them

Agreed, but at the same time it would also be worthwhile to look at ways to increase our detection and policing of shipping around these cables. I'm no expert but I imagine there are ways to speed up naval reaction times, tighten penalties for ships going dark (transponder off) and set new policy norms enabling rapid investigation. Basically things that make it harder for bad actors to maintain plausible deniability.…

On the transponders off point, I imagine soon we will have enough satellites such that we can map every object on the surface of the earth (specially something as large as a boat).

Could even see it through clouds using radar.

Re: Protecting undersea internet cables is a tech nightmare

#38

Post by grapesodaaaaa »

compootr wrote: post #23
the_af wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vandalism of public phones (when they existed) was pretty common in my city. And garbage bins in public spaces get destroyed all the time for no reason. Everything that isn't nailed down and very robust gets destroyed or stolen. Infrastructure things related to water pipes (at the buildings level) gets stolen, too (happened in my building recently). Everything that can be resold as raw materials gets stolen.

For a cable at the bottom of the ocean, there is a barrier to entry though. For theft in the city, the thing being stolen is pretty easily accessible, and requires much less thought than getting some kind of submersible and going to the bottom of the ocean

The egress/ingress points can sometimes be accessible by shore, but the cables I have seen there are pretty heavily armored (likely just the same type used to armor against ship anchors)

Re: Protecting undersea internet cables is a tech nightmare

#39

Post by mrandish »

shahzaibmushtaq wrote: post #15

We need a new global policy that is signed by every country (if it is possible) to protect undersea internet cables.

It would be literally impossible to get every country to even agree to a declaration that "warm puppies are good." Also, a lot of the shit countries do to each other is already explicitly against agreements they've signed.

Sadly, geopolitics isn't a gentleman's club. It's a brutal dog-eat-dog brawl where those with enough military power pretend rules matter - until they don't. The UN doesn't (and can't) enforce anything. It just proclaims platitudes which are ignored when it comes to anything that matters to those with real power. I mean they let Saudi Arabia chair the humans right committee, so it's clearly a joke.

Many countries ignore the International Criminal Court when it suits them and most of the others who protest, would turn around and do the same if something that really matters to their domestic power centers happens. The ICC is useful for dealing with regional warlords and criminals who don't have (or have lost) nation-state power. The criminals and warlords who do have nation-state power just ignore the ICC and the clever ones use the ICC to deal with domestic enemies when it's convenient. Unfortunately, respecting some ideal of international law or norms is a polite fiction for school children and the gullible.

Re: Protecting undersea internet cables is a tech nightmare

#40

Post by gehsty »

shahzaibmushtaq wrote: post #15

We need a new global policy that is signed by every country (if it is possible) to protect undersea internet cables.

That’s like saying we need a policy where every country agrees to be friends. If cables are cut as part of some clandestine operation by who evers security forces, they aren’t going to stop it because of some treaty.

(There are all ready guidelines from ICPC on cable protection design, cable crossings etc)

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