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Guile-Emacs Relaunched

emacsconf.org

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Re: Guile-Emacs Relaunched

#31

Post by davexunit »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #30
davexunit wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow that's some high praise. For anyone wondering, Hoot is a Scheme to WebAssembly compiler that is really cool (and also I'm one of the devs and also I don't live in a monastery.) https://spritely.institute/hoot/

I'm just a lurker but ty guys so much, doing really exciting things imo! As I waste away a little in VC startup world, yall are one of the handful of things that give me hope with all this computer/internet stuff we are working on all the time.

I worked at regular software companies for quite some time before Spritely, so no judgement here. I hope you can get the sort of job that is fulfilling to you, though! I'm glad we can give you some hope. :)

Re: Guile-Emacs Relaunched

#32

Post by lispm »

gpderetta wrote: post #11
miroljub wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> using mainstream more structured language is good point go into emacs. Are you really trying to tell use that Guile Scheme is more mainstream than Emacs Lisp? Cmon, I'm pretty sure all schemes combined don't have a fraction of programmers or libraries as elisp alone.

Possibly all lisp combined!

There are code bases for SINGLE Lisp applications which go into several million lines of code. For example PTC's CAD system had several years ago >7 million lines of Common Lisp.

Re: Guile-Emacs Relaunched

#33

Post by senkora »

davexunit wrote: post #12
Koshkin wrote: post #6

> integrates Emacs and Guile by providing a new Elisp implementation based on Guile's Lisp-oriented compiler tower and runtime environment I am hoping Guile the language (scheme) also will be supported alongside elisp.

It would allow using any language that runs on the Guile VM. Guile has a compiler tower model where you define languages and their path towards being lowered to bytecode. The main language, Scheme, lowers to the Tree-IL language (high-level intermediate representation), then to the CPS language (low-level IR), and finally to bytecode. Elisp lowers to Tree-IL, which means from there it takes the same path as Scheme do…

I know there was incomplete work done at some point on implementing JS for Guile: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/ECMAScri...

My understanding is that this is very far from being usable. But I mention it here because I suspect that some people on HN would be interested in the possibility of eventually running JS inside of Emacs.

Re: Guile-Emacs Relaunched

#34

Post by eadmund »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #20

Between this and things like Guix and Hoot, sometimes I feel like I could find incredible peace and happiness if I just sold all my possessions and moved into the Guile monestary, so to speak.

I really wish folks building these things in Scheme would build them instead in Lisp. Common Lisp is a better language for systems, despite a few design decisions which turn out to have been howling mistakes (the single worst is the default reader upcasing).

Re: Guile-Emacs Relaunched

#35

Post by struanr »

pjmlp wrote: post #28
skydhash wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a community project, increasing userbase should not be a priority concern. Though it should be user-friendly (emacs is as long as the user RTFM), I believe going for the common denominator instead of solving the community’s problem efficiently is less pragmatic. Before VSCode there were many, and there will be many afterwards. And VSCode is still strongly reliant on Microsoft’s resources.

A project with dwindling community is certainly a concern. VSCode isn't the only option, indeed.

Completely anecdotally, but my personal experience over the past ~2.5 years of using Emacs has been the opposite of a dwindling community. Releases are frequent, often containing exciting new features; the community maintains many great packages, with new ones get released frequently; and I see more Emacs discussions online than I did when I started using Emacs, many of which involve new users. Emacs has a brutal learning curve, awful defaults and ancient bones, so will always appeal to a smaller number of people than VSCode or (Neo)Vim. However, for those willing to learn the arcane art, it can wield immense power.

Re: Guile-Emacs Relaunched

#36

Post by davexunit »

senkora wrote: post #33
davexunit wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would allow using any language that runs on the Guile VM. Guile has a compiler tower model where you define languages and their path towards being lowered to bytecode. The main language, Scheme, lowers to the Tree-IL language (high-level intermediate representation), then to the CPS language (low-level IR), and finally to bytecode. Elisp lowers to Tree-IL, which means from there it takes the same path as Scheme do…

I know there was incomplete work done at some point on implementing JS for Guile: https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/ECMAScri... My understanding is that this is very far from being usable. But I mention it here because I suspect that some people on HN would be interested in the possibility of eventually running JS inside of Emacs.

Yeah I think that was something Andy Wingo added over a decade ago that hasn't seen much love since, but along with elisp it's another good example of the compiler tower. If you write a language frontend that lowers to Tree-IL then you get to ride the compiler train all the way to bytecode for free. I think that's pretty neat.

Another interesting use-case for the compiler tower is writing a language that compiles a machine readable specification to another language. guile-xcb compiles XCB's XML spec to Scheme:

https://github.com/mwitmer/guile-xcb/blob/master/language/xm...

Re: Guile-Emacs Relaunched

#37

Post by [deleted] »

miroljub wrote: post #7
dlahoda wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am not user of emacs, but looking into as next switch. using mainstream more structured language is good point go into emacs. it also will lead to rewrite of some plugins. for example many rust rewrites just better c versions, but more consistent and structured. there was not reason not to rewrite these in c but better. very good for newcomers to unix world. another point is async. i have heard that is one of probl…

> using mainstream more structured language is good point go into emacs. Are you really trying to tell use that Guile Scheme is more mainstream than Emacs Lisp? Cmon, I'm pretty sure all schemes combined don't have a fraction of programmers or libraries as elisp alone.

[deleted]

Re: Guile-Emacs Relaunched

#38

Post by dlahoda »

miroljub wrote: post #7
dlahoda wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i am not user of emacs, but looking into as next switch. using mainstream more structured language is good point go into emacs. it also will lead to rewrite of some plugins. for example many rust rewrites just better c versions, but more consistent and structured. there was not reason not to rewrite these in c but better. very good for newcomers to unix world. another point is async. i have heard that is one of probl…

> using mainstream more structured language is good point go into emacs. Are you really trying to tell use that Guile Scheme is more mainstream than Emacs Lisp? Cmon, I'm pretty sure all schemes combined don't have a fraction of programmers or libraries as elisp alone.

as per wiki, several gui apps use guile as scripting language. also guix of interest. if emacs would have guile, i would have single language lisp machine.

emacs lisp is not standard, while guile R7RS. so even more sharing.

so for me emacs with guile, were people during rewrites improved emacs extetensions, and i can do all in guile, music taxes money debugging productivity all in guile. is very attractive.

https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/#apps-using-guile

''Guile is used in many programs under the GNU project umbrella (GDB, Make, Guix, GNU TeXmacs, GnuCash, LilyPond, Lepton-EDA...)[8] but it also sees use outside of that, for example in Google's schism.''

also seems guile is jit, emacs lisp interpreted.

and guile favors immutable, unlike emacs lisp. which i favor too.

there is also guile hoot giving me option for browser.

Re: Guile-Emacs Relaunched

#39

Post by max6zx »

crabbone wrote: post #14
systems wrote: post #9

i have one question, for me emacs have only 1 major flaw (or you can call it drawback) , its slow, some extensions are very very slow , magit for me is the prime example , json-navigator is another will this make emacs fast , i understand guile is a nicer language than elisp, but if its not significantly faster, this i think will go nowhere (the second but minor flaw, it need better graphics, nicer ways to represent…

I cannot speak to nice graphics (I don't want a different way to represent directory trees or git branches, I'm happy with how it's done today), but on the count of Magit's speed... it's not really the problem of the language. It's the problem of how the program is written. Well, maybe in a way it is also the language. With some languages you have more room to be sloppy, with Emacs Lisp, when used in this way, you ha…

Actually, if it has true support for async and better graphics, the UI can be modified so it is "perceived" to have better speed. In the current Emacs, some actions are slowe and we know it has nothing to do with Emacs as they depends on external processes. But it makes entire Emacs hang, and it's terrible from user perspective. If there is a way to make those operations running async, with some nice text messages/graphics to indicate the status, it would be much better. It is similar to the story about installing mirrors inside elevators and made people feel waiting time is much shorter, while travelling time was actually the same.

Re: Guile-Emacs Relaunched

#40

Post by znpy »

Do we even want guile-emacs nowadays?

With native compilation i'd rather keep a sub-optimal but fast lisp (emacs lisp) than get a slow but (allegedly) better lisp (guile).

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