How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired • Hacker News Board

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#31

Post by lpapez » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 9:42 PM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #25

lisper wrote: post #2

Another tactic I like to use is a riff on the authors suggestion #3: “Is there a reason you did (or did not do) X?” This works because it’s framed as accepting the decision and being genuinely curious about the rationale. Often the answer is: no, I never really gave it any thought. Other times there turns out to be a good reason that didn’t occur to me and it turns into a learning experience for me. Another tactic th…

Depends on the profile, when somebody talks to me like that I immediately cringe in my head and lose all respect for the person. Probably a matter of culture too.

Same here - whenever I see someone trying to get around giving honest feedback, and trying to frame it as "humble curiosity" instead, I immediately assume they read some "leadership" articles and are trying to apply it because they are second guessing themselves. I believe it depends a lot on the culture, but I am much more used to either keeping my mouth shut (when there is nothing on the line) or being blunt (when it matters). Either way, no sugarcoating or "being curious".

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#32

Post by fny » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 9:42 PM UTC

Rygian wrote: post #23

fny wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re ignoring the “without getting fired” part. The implication is that you’re in a situation where management is stubborn or even hostile to feedback. Most organizations don’t practice “highly effective communication”. It’s often a nightmare riddled with politics and ego.

> I think you’re ignoring the “without getting fired” part. The "start polishing your resume" bit was quite explicit.

I'd argue 99% percent of companies operate like this. No one likes blunt feedback--even in friendships and marriage. Good luck if you throw money and ego into the mix.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#33

Post by terminalbraid » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 9:44 PM UTC

peppertree wrote: post #28

Feedback is pointless. Vote with your feet. If a team has high churn it's guaranteed the leadership is garbage.

I agree voting with your feet is good and underutilized, but it's also extremely expensive for both sides. There's no successful group that didn't need feedback or even internal conflict (with healthy resolution) to be successful.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#34

Post by danjl » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 9:46 PM UTC

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

It would be wonderful if the world could accept blunt feedback. It is certainly easier to give and more in-line with what most technical people would prefer. However, we work with humans, and we have learned an awful lot about how humans respond to language, especially criticism. The advice here applies to giving feedback to any human, not just superiors. As you spend time working with humans, you learn, perhaps slowly that what you might consider "fluff" is really about helping make your point. Being direct doesn't always, or even usually, work as well.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#35

Post by 5cott0 » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 9:47 PM UTC

Captain Miller: "I don't gripe to you, Reiben. I'm a captain. There's a chain of command. Gripes go up, not down. Always up. You gripe to me, I gripe to my superior officer, so on, so on, and so on. I don't gripe to you. I don't gripe in front of you. You should know that as a Ranger."

Private Reiben: "I'm sorry, sir, but uh... let's say you weren't a captain, or maybe I was a major. What would you say then?"

Captain Miller: Well, in that case... I'd say, "This is an excellent mission, sir, with an extremely valuable objective, sir, worthy of my best efforts, sir. Moreover... I feel heartfelt sorrow for the mother of Private James Ryan and am willing to lay down my life and the lives of my men - especially you, Reiben - to ease her suffering."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhbObZEF0Mc Saving Private Ryan

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#36

Post by cle » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 9:47 PM UTC

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

> If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of.

You're assuming that the subordinate's feedback is sufficiently important to the business. It might not be. It might also not be important to the business if subordinates leave b/c their feedback is disregarded. I can imagine plenty of scenarios where a leader could still succeed while not giving a crap about subordinate feedback. It depends on the goals and the dynamics of the business, the leader's experience, market conditions, labor environments, etc.

> The reason you don't fluff feedback, or any information for that matter to your superiors, is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations.

You can argue in your exit interview that you were just following handbooks.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#37

Post by csa » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 9:47 PM UTC

fcarraldo wrote: post #24

bradlys wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

In my experience, Americans are much more likely to see criticism as a threat or an insult than in most European business cultures, where blunt feedback is common. I’ve seen many teams in different companies led by Americans where simply pointing out that a plan will fail in a public forum is tantamount to spitting in their face. It’s absurd, and it destroys teams.

> I’ve seen many teams in different companies led by Americans where simply pointing out that a plan will fail in a public forum is tantamount to spitting in their face.

I’ve been put into the “practitioner of the dark arts” bucket twice when I predicted with detail and accuracy why certain large projects would fail.

The folks in charge were offended when I presented my analysis, and they were just afraid of me after my predictions came true.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#38

Post by jen729w » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 9:48 PM UTC

This is a lesson to us all, though. Like it or not — and it'll vary depending on your geography and industry and so on, I know — this is an issue of at least some proportion.

So, just be aware. Many of us are someone's boss. You might not feel like you're 'senior', but to them you are.

Be open. Listen. Don't react (immediately). Consider. Just stop and think for a second. Realise that these other people's views are, at the very least, worth considering. (They may, of course, be wrong.)

One of the most rewarding things I did before I left the corporate world was have a 26-year-old grad as a direct report. I was 46 and had 'Head of…' in my job title. She was as smart as anything and it was an incredible experience. Hopefully, for us both.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#39

Post by drewcoo » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 9:48 PM UTC

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

People get promoted by "managing up," which you call "fluffing."

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#40

Post by IshKebab » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 9:49 PM UTC

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

> If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of.

Maybe, but the title is "without getting fired" not "without being wrong damnit!". Unless you have a significant number of shares in the company you should care about your own employment and success over the success of the whatever function this person has oversight of.

> The reason you don't fluff feedback, or any information for that matter to your superiors, is described in basically every handbook on highly effective communication in organizations.

And that reason is...?